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Bitcoin has tons of intrinsic value unique to crypto currencies that traditional currencies lack. Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a c

Bitcoin has tons of intrinsic value unique to crypto currencies that traditional currencies lack. Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. Can't do that with gold or cash. With normal currency a wire transfer costs money and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. Also you can store a lot of it yourself, relatively securely compared to storing hundreds of thousands of dollars yourself. Oh and it's also backed up by a global ledger that is country or government agnostic. The electricity it takes to maintain it is nothing compared to the rest of the banking system. These properties are the very nature of crypto, that's why it's intrinsic.

ggggtez 8y ago
If you ever studied economics, you'd know that scarcity is not intrinsically valluable. It might be a useful feature, but intrinsic value means having a minimum value. Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing. Besides, you could make a new buttcoin tomorrow, but you can't make a new kind of Atom. Stop proving that Bitcoin enthusiasts don't understand economics.
- jabits 8y ago
  If you think gold can’t be created, you need to revisit your chemistry and physics books. While not economically feasible yet, with the mastery of fusion energy technologies it one day will be...
  - jhall1468 8y ago
    It can't be created practically which is the same as can't be created for purposes of this discussion. Talking about creating something using a tool that we haven't even created is futurism.
    - notahacker 8y ago
      And of course as soon as it can be created practically and cheaply, the price of gold will drop to [close to] the cost of manipulating atoms to create new gold.
      - jhall1468 8y ago
        IF it's ever created practically and cheaply. Despite your comment, it may never be cost effective.
- dchest 8y ago
  Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing. Are you saying that the intrinsic value of gold is the price manufacturers of "useful" products from gold are willing to pay for it?
- trixie_ 8y ago
  Scarcity is absolutely an intrinsic value. Gold has value because it is relatively scarce given the difficulty to mine. In addition to being really shiny which was valued by our ancestors. There are lots of useful rare elements used in manufacturing. In terms of a currency though gold has nothing on bitcoin. Gold is hard to move, hard to validate as authentic, heavy, easy to steal, etc..
  - notahacker 8y ago
    My excrement is several orders of magnitude more scarce than Bitcoins and gold bars alike, but it has no value because nobody wants it. Scarcity relative to demand pushes up market prices (i.e. extrinsic value) but that's something entirely different...
    - hndamien 8y ago
      Maybe you can work on drumming up demand for your excrement. Fecal transplants are a thing now.
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    > Scarcity is absolutely an intrinsic value Then what is the number? No, scarcity is an important attribute that contributes to perceived value, but it's not intrinsic. Otherwise any cryptocurrency that is scarce would have intrinsic value, as opposed to the many that are essentially 0.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
"Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government." This is not cut and dry as to whether it is a benefit or not. Many people, myself included, don't consider it a benefit. Not having control over your currency makes it that much harder to respond in times of recession. Greece was hit quite hard by the Great Recession, and one of the reasons why is because they didn't have control over their currency, and so they couldn't lower the value of it. The Euro was still valued high due to the use by Germany and France. "Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees." Currently that's not true of Bitcoin, either. Transactions are slow, and fees are not low. "The electricity it takes to maintain it is nothing compared to the rest of the banking system." Is it? It takes a crazy amount of power, for what seems to be something that only a small amount of people are using, with a very anemic transaction throughput.
- trixie_ 8y ago
  You put your trust in governments to not mess with the currency. That's on you. When shit hits the fan people buy gold, it's no different with crypto. People don't trust the government to manage currency correctly in times of trouble. But even in good times, crypto has a lot going for it. Transactions are very fast and very low compared to traditional currency. Often it takes days to move money between banks, or will cost you much more than a bitcoin transaction fee to move faster. Again, bitcoin could have 100x the users and the power requirements would be negligible compared to banking. There is no 'scale up' power wise needed for bitcoin.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    "You put your trust in governments to not mess with the currency. That's on you. When shit hits the fan people buy gold, it's no different with crypto. People don't trust the government to manage currency correctly in times of trouble. But even in good times, crypto has a lot going for it." Some people, not all people. And that's why I said that it unsure whether that's an actual value or not. "Transactions are very fast and very low compared to traditional currency. Often it takes days to move money between banks, or will cost you much more than a bitcoin transaction fee to move faster." No, not really. Credit card transactions are far, far faster than a Bitcoin one. Bank transfers in Europe are quite fast, too. "Again, bitcoin could have 100x the users and the power requirements would be negligible compared to banking. There is no 'scale up' power wise needed for bitcoin." You're gonna have to provide a citation for this.
ctrl_freak 8y ago
I don’t think that’s what “intrinsic” means. Would Bitcoin have any value if no one else were using it?
- trixie_ 8y ago
  Intrinsic properties are the things that remain even if no one is using it. So even if no one is using bitcoin it is still quick to transfer, hard to forge, difficult to create, etc.. etc..
econochoice 8y ago
The government has taken control of Bitcoins in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. All it takes is a warrant. Also, unlike cash, you're making your transaction history public. Any central government in the world can see this. You have to jump through a lot of hoops and use multiple blockchains to anonymize your Bitcoins. Transfers incur a network fee with Bitcoin as well. I doubt anyone making a small purchase wants to pay fees that might be a significant percentage of, or exceed, their purchase subtotal. You cannot send Bitcoins "at the speed of light". On average, the Bitcoin network processes 7 transactions per second.
- trixie_ 8y ago
  Wrong it's a block every 10 minutes. See I can be pedantic too :p 10 minutes is the speed of light compared to any typical bank transfer. The ledger isn't public in the sense that you can identify the owner of an address easily or at all.
lolsal 8y ago
I am largely ignorant to the details of BTC and other coins, but your comment seems incorrect. > Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Couldn't someone destroy/steal my BTC wallet though? I'd have no recourse for justice, right? Also, doesn't the Federal Reserve print money mostly at will? > Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. I think the speed claim here is totally false[1]. > With normal currency a wire transfer costs money Don't all BTC transactions have confirmation fees? > and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. This is true crypto currencies shine here. It can take 20 minutes to transfer $5 or $5,000,000. > The electricity it takes to maintain it is nothing compared to the rest of the banking system. Maybe, but also maybe not. The rest of the banking system provides lots of services and protections that crypto currencies don't. > These properties are the very nature of crypto, that's why it's intrinsic. These are properties of crypto currencies for sure, but that these are valuable properties is entirely subjective. [1] - https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time
- trixie_ 8y ago
  The gov can't print bitcoin. Transaction fees are much less than traditional currency, and much faster transfer. (Sorry for not being super exact) Wiring 20k into an exchange costs me $20, a normal transfer takes a few days. Crypto is way more useful to me for moving lots of $$ around.

ggggtez 8y ago

If you ever studied economics, you'd know that scarcity is not intrinsically valluable. It might be a useful feature, but intrinsic value means having a minimum value. Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing. Besides, you could make a new buttcoin tomorrow, but you can't make a new kind of Atom. Stop proving that Bitcoin enthusiasts don't understand economics.

jabits 8y ago
If you think gold can’t be created, you need to revisit your chemistry and physics books. While not economically feasible yet, with the mastery of fusion energy technologies it one day will be...
- jhall1468 8y ago
  It can't be created practically which is the same as can't be created for purposes of this discussion. Talking about creating something using a tool that we haven't even created is futurism.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    And of course as soon as it can be created practically and cheaply, the price of gold will drop to [close to] the cost of manipulating atoms to create new gold.
    - jhall1468 8y ago
      IF it's ever created practically and cheaply. Despite your comment, it may never be cost effective.
dchest 8y ago
Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing. Are you saying that the intrinsic value of gold is the price manufacturers of "useful" products from gold are willing to pay for it?
trixie_ 8y ago
Scarcity is absolutely an intrinsic value. Gold has value because it is relatively scarce given the difficulty to mine. In addition to being really shiny which was valued by our ancestors. There are lots of useful rare elements used in manufacturing. In terms of a currency though gold has nothing on bitcoin. Gold is hard to move, hard to validate as authentic, heavy, easy to steal, etc..
- notahacker 8y ago
  My excrement is several orders of magnitude more scarce than Bitcoins and gold bars alike, but it has no value because nobody wants it. Scarcity relative to demand pushes up market prices (i.e. extrinsic value) but that's something entirely different...
  - hndamien 8y ago
    Maybe you can work on drumming up demand for your excrement. Fecal transplants are a thing now.
- bdcravens 8y ago
  > Scarcity is absolutely an intrinsic value Then what is the number? No, scarcity is an important attribute that contributes to perceived value, but it's not intrinsic. Otherwise any cryptocurrency that is scarce would have intrinsic value, as opposed to the many that are essentially 0.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

"Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government." This is not cut and dry as to whether it is a benefit or not. Many people, myself included, don't consider it a benefit. Not having control over your currency makes it that much harder to respond in times of recession. Greece was hit quite hard by the Great Recession, and one of the reasons why is because they didn't have control over their currency, and so they couldn't lower the value of it. The Euro was still valued high due to the use by Germany and France. "Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees." Currently that's not true of Bitcoin, either. Transactions are slow, and fees are not low. "The electricity it takes to maintain it is nothing compared to the rest of the banking system." Is it? It takes a crazy amount of power, for what seems to be something that only a small amount of people are using, with a very anemic transaction throughput.

trixie_ 8y ago
You put your trust in governments to not mess with the currency. That's on you. When shit hits the fan people buy gold, it's no different with crypto. People don't trust the government to manage currency correctly in times of trouble. But even in good times, crypto has a lot going for it. Transactions are very fast and very low compared to traditional currency. Often it takes days to move money between banks, or will cost you much more than a bitcoin transaction fee to move faster. Again, bitcoin could have 100x the users and the power requirements would be negligible compared to banking. There is no 'scale up' power wise needed for bitcoin.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "You put your trust in governments to not mess with the currency. That's on you. When shit hits the fan people buy gold, it's no different with crypto. People don't trust the government to manage currency correctly in times of trouble. But even in good times, crypto has a lot going for it." Some people, not all people. And that's why I said that it unsure whether that's an actual value or not. "Transactions are very fast and very low compared to traditional currency. Often it takes days to move money between banks, or will cost you much more than a bitcoin transaction fee to move faster." No, not really. Credit card transactions are far, far faster than a Bitcoin one. Bank transfers in Europe are quite fast, too. "Again, bitcoin could have 100x the users and the power requirements would be negligible compared to banking. There is no 'scale up' power wise needed for bitcoin." You're gonna have to provide a citation for this.

ctrl_freak 8y ago

I don’t think that’s what “intrinsic” means. Would Bitcoin have any value if no one else were using it?

trixie_ 8y ago
Intrinsic properties are the things that remain even if no one is using it. So even if no one is using bitcoin it is still quick to transfer, hard to forge, difficult to create, etc.. etc..

econochoice 8y ago

The government has taken control of Bitcoins in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. All it takes is a warrant. Also, unlike cash, you're making your transaction history public. Any central government in the world can see this. You have to jump through a lot of hoops and use multiple blockchains to anonymize your Bitcoins. Transfers incur a network fee with Bitcoin as well. I doubt anyone making a small purchase wants to pay fees that might be a significant percentage of, or exceed, their purchase subtotal. You cannot send Bitcoins "at the speed of light". On average, the Bitcoin network processes 7 transactions per second.

trixie_ 8y ago
Wrong it's a block every 10 minutes. See I can be pedantic too :p 10 minutes is the speed of light compared to any typical bank transfer. The ledger isn't public in the sense that you can identify the owner of an address easily or at all.

lolsal 8y ago

I am largely ignorant to the details of BTC and other coins, but your comment seems incorrect. > Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Couldn't someone destroy/steal my BTC wallet though? I'd have no recourse for justice, right? Also, doesn't the Federal Reserve print money mostly at will? > Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. I think the speed claim here is totally false[1]. > With normal currency a wire transfer costs money Don't all BTC transactions have confirmation fees? > and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. This is true crypto currencies shine here. It can take 20 minutes to transfer $5 or $5,000,000. > The electricity it takes to maintain it is nothing compared to the rest of the banking system. Maybe, but also maybe not. The rest of the banking system provides lots of services and protections that crypto currencies don't. > These properties are the very nature of crypto, that's why it's intrinsic. These are properties of crypto currencies for sure, but that these are valuable properties is entirely subjective. [1] - https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time

trixie_ 8y ago
The gov can't print bitcoin. Transaction fees are much less than traditional currency, and much faster transfer. (Sorry for not being super exact) Wiring 20k into an exchange costs me $20, a normal transfer takes a few days. Crypto is way more useful to me for moving lots of $$ around.