7 ms·

Russian ALFA Class interceptor submarine

124 points by dyyni 8y ago

mikl 8y ago
Cue the “Hunt for Red October” soundtrack. Pure geeky engineering porn.
- amaks 8y ago
  BTW, the real "Red October" is a Typhoon class sub: http://www.hisutton.com/The%20REAL%20Red%20October%20-%20Typhoon%20SSBN.html http://www.hisutton.com/The%20REAL%20Red%20October%20-%20Typ...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Lionsion 8y ago
    I think the opponent Russian sub was an Alfa, though. That's the one that's sunk at the end of the movie.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - jabl 8y ago
      Yes, that's correct. (And the US subs are 688 class.)
      - rpeden 8y ago
        In the book, USS Ethan Allen (an SSBN) made an appearance as well.
      - zentiggr 8y ago
        Fun fact - as I was reading Red October, I got a job as an electronics apprentice/tech at the yard in Portsmouth NH, and the first boat I stepped onto was the Dallas. Was a cool moment.
Shivetya 8y ago
Zolotaya Rybka was a name these got to be known by as it was an example of what went wrong in Soviet ship building. Basically the story as I understand it is that they ordered ships based on capability and not their cost which led to an exaggerated military budget versus GDP. Combined with Oscar and Typhoon ships they simply ran themselves out of money. however they were the pride of a Soviet navy that knew they could not afford the carriers and support ships the US had but were convinced when push came to shove the submarines would be more than up to the task.
- jobu 8y ago
  > Zolotaya Rybka Hadn't heard that phrase before. This appears to be a decent explanation: https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/zolotaya-rybka/ https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/zolotaya-rybka/ "If you’re too greedy, you’ll lose everything."
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    'Zolotaya' -> made of gold or golden, 'Rybka' -> fish. The Polish currency is named 'złoty', which also has its roots in gold.
    - sorokod 8y ago
      'Rybka' is the diminutive of fish - 'Ryba'
      - jacquesm 8y ago
        To nie ja, to rybka!
    - deanCommie 8y ago
      Yeah but it's more than that. It's not just "golden fishy", it's also a ubiquitous (in Russia) Russian fable, as the parent comment mentioned.
acidburnNSA 8y ago
These were among the only Lead-bismith cooled nuclear reactors ever operated. Sodium-potassium eutectic or pure sodium coolant is a better heat transfer fluid but in a water environment it's just a little crazy due to sodium-water chemistry. The US Navy tried sodium coolant in the USS Seawolf [1] and it was smaller, quieter, and more powerful, but they had problems with the steam generators. Not an unsolvable problem but definitely a challenge. The success of the water cooled competitor eventually led to the predominance of water cooled reactors in the commercial fleet. Passively safe Lead-cooled commercial reactors are still thought about today. Challenges include high pumping power required due to high density, erosion issues at high coolant velocity, and corrosion issues without very stringent oxygen control. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Seawolf_(SSN-575) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Seawolf_(SSN-575)
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > The success of the water cooled competitor eventually led to the predominance of water cooled reactors in the commercial fleet. By commercial you mean operational (as in non-experimental Navy vessels.) There's precious few commercial nuclear vessels in history (four, each from a different country and I don't think they were ever operational all at the same time), so talking about the dominance of a particular nuclear technology being dominant in a “commercial fleet” seems misplaced.
  - acidburnNSA 8y ago
    I meant to refer to the commercial fleet of commercial nuclear power plants making electricity on land, almost all of which have designs directly descended from naval designs. I guess "fleet" isn't a great word to use in the context of naval vessels. Whoops!
    - brandmeyer 8y ago
      Its not commonly known, but the initial generation of commercial power reactors in the US is basically the result of technology transfer from the Naval Nuclear Propulsion program.
hangonhn 8y ago
This is tangentially related: I came across this Reddit post a while back that I found very insightful. In the area of submarine design, the Soviets/Russians are actually much more innovative than Americans. They seem much more willing to try new ideas whereas Americans stuck to a more conservative try and true design. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3bzekv/what_were_the_primary_differences_between_soviet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3bzekv/what_...
- theoh 8y ago
  That is an interesting post. it relates to the KISS philosophy, which apparently originated in the US military (at least, that name for it). Also the reformers of the 70s and 80s, the group around John Boyd, Pierre Sprey etc., really pushed for simpler equipment, in opposition to high-tech complexity. It's a recurring theme, and it's definitely a kind of conservatism since it always keeps a (more or less) skilled man in the loop. In a way it creates the conditions for human excellence in the old sense, which automation does away with. This 2010 book on cultural differences in military innovation may also be relevant: The Culture of Military Innovation The Impact of Cultural Factors on the Revolution in Military Affairs in Russia, the US, and Israel. DIMA ADAMSKY https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104 https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104
- jgalt212 8y ago
  no doubt, the caterpillar drive was revolutionary and big source of fear in the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submarine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submari...
  - aj7 8y ago
    Science fiction for working submarines.
- MichaelMoser123 8y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_subma... the list of sunken Soviet submarines is much longer than the list of sunken US submarines, how is that explained?
jabl 8y ago
Nitpick: they certainly weren't 400 meters long as claimed in the article. Wikipedia claims 81.4m which seems more reasonable. Edit: doh, 400m depth, not size of the boat.
- mrbill 8y ago
  I thought perhaps 400m was their max depth but Wikipedia says 350.
  - knute 8y ago
    "Max depth" is kind of a nebulous concept though. There's the "test depth" which is as deep as they're willing to test the submarine. There's the maximum operational depth, which is some lesser depth that keeps a safety margin over the test depth. Then there's the "crush depth", which is the depth at which the submarine will actually fail, and is hopefully substantially deeper than the test depth.
    - srean 8y ago
      .. and along those lines cannot recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot enough
      - hermitdev 8y ago
        Been a while since I've watched "Das Boot", but IIRC, there's a scene in the movie where, initially on the surface, they have a taught string strung across the sub. Then, as they dive, deeper and deeper, the taught string relaxes giving a rather frightening visual insight into how much the hull of the boat is compressing.
- dnhz 8y ago
  > At 41 knots and 400 meters the ALFA Class pushed the boundaries of both speed and operating depth. 400 m is a claim on operating depth, not length.
- deleted 8y ago
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
I've seen glaciers load faster than that website. I'm really impressed that it's hanging on and not just erroring out.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Running under Python no less.
  - willvarfar 8y ago
    I happen to know how it's set up :) It's a pelican static site but in git; then there is a tiny Python webserver that 'publishes' the bare git repo, not unlike a custom github pages. And it's running on an absolute-cheapest VPS with no RAM or CPU to speak of. The good thing about the host though is they limit bandwidth rather than total bytes, so sure it slows down - it's really being hammered right now! - but it won't die with a nasty message when it hits some total-bytes-per-month limit.
rdtsc 8y ago
It was an experimental design and as the article says, it was very expensive. Titanium was not just expensive, but it was hard to use. Welding had to be done in an inert gas chamber. Imagine building an inert gas chamber for a submarine. More info about it here https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-alfa-class-was-the-terrifying-hot-rod-sub-of-th-1637540064 https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-alfa-class-was-the... I think that's a better overall article than the original link. New reactor design was experimental as well. Lead bismuth mixed had to be kept 120'C or higher. But it was much easier to increase it power momentarily, say if they wanted to chase someone. There is also a youtube video about it among others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ34mE-aCdY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ34mE-aCdY (in Russian though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO6FZ_ztzKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO6FZ_ztzKM In one of the videos they mentioned when they did sea trials, the speed got so high it stripped the paint off. It was also fun to show off their new toy to the Americans.
- ben7799 8y ago
  They don't have to weld in an inert gas chamber. Titanium welding is typically done by purging the air around the weld and/or pumping the inert gas into the parts being welded assuming they're tubes, etc.. A bunch of the gasses involved are heavier than air and that property can be used to come up with clever solutions. Maybe the Russians built a giant chamber but that seems like a very non-russian solution considering their great awareness of KISS. More likely they found a way to seal an area around the weld and weld in sections that allowed them to pump inert gas into small areas near the welding equipment.
  - rdtsc 8y ago
    Ah ok. They were showing people putting on what looked like moon suits and going into a chamber. I imagine that's for smaller scale welds. But I imagine pumping argon under pressure to displace oxygen in some areas would work as well. Then ventilate properly as it would settle and well ... suffocate people.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  It gave the Russians a lead in Titanium manufacturing that still exists today.
apendleton 8y ago
In case people miss it, there's a link to a fascinating CIA case study: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol52no3/unravelling-a-cold-war-mystery.html https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig... that describes how the CIA reached consensus about the Alfa being made of titanium.
ams6110 8y ago
It has an escape capsule. According to the article, only the Russians had that feature in their subs. I wonder why?
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  Here's a tiny bit of explanation second hand from USN about why the USN does not use them - too much chance for things to go wrong, although that's not surprisng they would say that considering that's what the Soviets said happened on the sunken submarine being discussed. https://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/04/world/rescue-capsule-saved-only-1-on-sinking-soviet-submarine.html https://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/04/world/rescue-capsule-save...
  - GCU-Empiricist 8y ago
    On the flip side between where you can get out in a survival suit, where rescue submarines can get to, and places where the people tank will go crunch before you hit the bottom, pretty much everything is covered for USN submarines; it's a very safety conscious community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Escape_Immersion_Equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Escape_Immersion_Equ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Submarine_Rescue_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Submarine_Rescue_System
kakwa_ 8y ago
The Alpha is truly impressive for its time. Fast, very advanced, and also its lines are kind of neat, beautiful curves that spell speed. Also, if you want another design that was quite impressive for its time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine (we are lucky that these didn't go into service 2 years earlier).

124 points by dyyni 8y ago

mikl 8y ago

Cue the “Hunt for Red October” soundtrack. Pure geeky engineering porn.

amaks 8y ago
BTW, the real "Red October" is a Typhoon class sub: http://www.hisutton.com/The%20REAL%20Red%20October%20-%20Typhoon%20SSBN.html http://www.hisutton.com/The%20REAL%20Red%20October%20-%20Typ...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Lionsion 8y ago
  I think the opponent Russian sub was an Alfa, though. That's the one that's sunk at the end of the movie.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jabl 8y ago
    Yes, that's correct. (And the US subs are 688 class.)
    - rpeden 8y ago
      In the book, USS Ethan Allen (an SSBN) made an appearance as well.
    - zentiggr 8y ago
      Fun fact - as I was reading Red October, I got a job as an electronics apprentice/tech at the yard in Portsmouth NH, and the first boat I stepped onto was the Dallas. Was a cool moment.

Shivetya 8y ago

Zolotaya Rybka was a name these got to be known by as it was an example of what went wrong in Soviet ship building. Basically the story as I understand it is that they ordered ships based on capability and not their cost which led to an exaggerated military budget versus GDP. Combined with Oscar and Typhoon ships they simply ran themselves out of money. however they were the pride of a Soviet navy that knew they could not afford the carriers and support ships the US had but were convinced when push came to shove the submarines would be more than up to the task.

jobu 8y ago
> Zolotaya Rybka Hadn't heard that phrase before. This appears to be a decent explanation: https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/zolotaya-rybka/ https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/zolotaya-rybka/ "If you’re too greedy, you’ll lose everything."
- jacquesm 8y ago
  'Zolotaya' -> made of gold or golden, 'Rybka' -> fish. The Polish currency is named 'złoty', which also has its roots in gold.
  - sorokod 8y ago
    'Rybka' is the diminutive of fish - 'Ryba'
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      To nie ja, to rybka!
  - deanCommie 8y ago
    Yeah but it's more than that. It's not just "golden fishy", it's also a ubiquitous (in Russia) Russian fable, as the parent comment mentioned.

acidburnNSA 8y ago

These were among the only Lead-bismith cooled nuclear reactors ever operated. Sodium-potassium eutectic or pure sodium coolant is a better heat transfer fluid but in a water environment it's just a little crazy due to sodium-water chemistry. The US Navy tried sodium coolant in the USS Seawolf [1] and it was smaller, quieter, and more powerful, but they had problems with the steam generators. Not an unsolvable problem but definitely a challenge. The success of the water cooled competitor eventually led to the predominance of water cooled reactors in the commercial fleet. Passively safe Lead-cooled commercial reactors are still thought about today. Challenges include high pumping power required due to high density, erosion issues at high coolant velocity, and corrosion issues without very stringent oxygen control. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Seawolf_(SSN-575) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Seawolf_(SSN-575)

dragonwriter 8y ago
> The success of the water cooled competitor eventually led to the predominance of water cooled reactors in the commercial fleet. By commercial you mean operational (as in non-experimental Navy vessels.) There's precious few commercial nuclear vessels in history (four, each from a different country and I don't think they were ever operational all at the same time), so talking about the dominance of a particular nuclear technology being dominant in a “commercial fleet” seems misplaced.
- acidburnNSA 8y ago
  I meant to refer to the commercial fleet of commercial nuclear power plants making electricity on land, almost all of which have designs directly descended from naval designs. I guess "fleet" isn't a great word to use in the context of naval vessels. Whoops!
  - brandmeyer 8y ago
    Its not commonly known, but the initial generation of commercial power reactors in the US is basically the result of technology transfer from the Naval Nuclear Propulsion program.

hangonhn 8y ago

This is tangentially related: I came across this Reddit post a while back that I found very insightful. In the area of submarine design, the Soviets/Russians are actually much more innovative than Americans. They seem much more willing to try new ideas whereas Americans stuck to a more conservative try and true design. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3bzekv/what_were_the_primary_differences_between_soviet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3bzekv/what_...

theoh 8y ago
That is an interesting post. it relates to the KISS philosophy, which apparently originated in the US military (at least, that name for it). Also the reformers of the 70s and 80s, the group around John Boyd, Pierre Sprey etc., really pushed for simpler equipment, in opposition to high-tech complexity. It's a recurring theme, and it's definitely a kind of conservatism since it always keeps a (more or less) skilled man in the loop. In a way it creates the conditions for human excellence in the old sense, which automation does away with. This 2010 book on cultural differences in military innovation may also be relevant: The Culture of Military Innovation The Impact of Cultural Factors on the Revolution in Military Affairs in Russia, the US, and Israel. DIMA ADAMSKY https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104 https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104
jgalt212 8y ago
no doubt, the caterpillar drive was revolutionary and big source of fear in the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submarine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submari...
- aj7 8y ago
  Science fiction for working submarines.
MichaelMoser123 8y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_subma... the list of sunken Soviet submarines is much longer than the list of sunken US submarines, how is that explained?

jabl 8y ago

Nitpick: they certainly weren't 400 meters long as claimed in the article. Wikipedia claims 81.4m which seems more reasonable. Edit: doh, 400m depth, not size of the boat.

mrbill 8y ago
I thought perhaps 400m was their max depth but Wikipedia says 350.
- knute 8y ago
  "Max depth" is kind of a nebulous concept though. There's the "test depth" which is as deep as they're willing to test the submarine. There's the maximum operational depth, which is some lesser depth that keeps a safety margin over the test depth. Then there's the "crush depth", which is the depth at which the submarine will actually fail, and is hopefully substantially deeper than the test depth.
  - srean 8y ago
    .. and along those lines cannot recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot enough
    - hermitdev 8y ago
      Been a while since I've watched "Das Boot", but IIRC, there's a scene in the movie where, initially on the surface, they have a taught string strung across the sub. Then, as they dive, deeper and deeper, the taught string relaxes giving a rather frightening visual insight into how much the hull of the boat is compressing.
dnhz 8y ago
> At 41 knots and 400 meters the ALFA Class pushed the boundaries of both speed and operating depth. 400 m is a claim on operating depth, not length.
deleted 8y ago

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

I've seen glaciers load faster than that website. I'm really impressed that it's hanging on and not just erroring out.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Running under Python no less.
- willvarfar 8y ago
  I happen to know how it's set up :) It's a pelican static site but in git; then there is a tiny Python webserver that 'publishes' the bare git repo, not unlike a custom github pages. And it's running on an absolute-cheapest VPS with no RAM or CPU to speak of. The good thing about the host though is they limit bandwidth rather than total bytes, so sure it slows down - it's really being hammered right now! - but it won't die with a nasty message when it hits some total-bytes-per-month limit.

rdtsc 8y ago

It was an experimental design and as the article says, it was very expensive. Titanium was not just expensive, but it was hard to use. Welding had to be done in an inert gas chamber. Imagine building an inert gas chamber for a submarine. More info about it here https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-alfa-class-was-the-terrifying-hot-rod-sub-of-th-1637540064 https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-alfa-class-was-the... I think that's a better overall article than the original link. New reactor design was experimental as well. Lead bismuth mixed had to be kept 120'C or higher. But it was much easier to increase it power momentarily, say if they wanted to chase someone. There is also a youtube video about it among others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ34mE-aCdY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ34mE-aCdY (in Russian though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO6FZ_ztzKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO6FZ_ztzKM In one of the videos they mentioned when they did sea trials, the speed got so high it stripped the paint off. It was also fun to show off their new toy to the Americans.

ben7799 8y ago
They don't have to weld in an inert gas chamber. Titanium welding is typically done by purging the air around the weld and/or pumping the inert gas into the parts being welded assuming they're tubes, etc.. A bunch of the gasses involved are heavier than air and that property can be used to come up with clever solutions. Maybe the Russians built a giant chamber but that seems like a very non-russian solution considering their great awareness of KISS. More likely they found a way to seal an area around the weld and weld in sections that allowed them to pump inert gas into small areas near the welding equipment.
- rdtsc 8y ago
  Ah ok. They were showing people putting on what looked like moon suits and going into a chamber. I imagine that's for smaller scale welds. But I imagine pumping argon under pressure to displace oxygen in some areas would work as well. Then ventilate properly as it would settle and well ... suffocate people.
jacquesm 8y ago
It gave the Russians a lead in Titanium manufacturing that still exists today.

apendleton 8y ago

In case people miss it, there's a link to a fascinating CIA case study: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol52no3/unravelling-a-cold-war-mystery.html https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig... that describes how the CIA reached consensus about the Alfa being made of titanium.

ams6110 8y ago

It has an escape capsule. According to the article, only the Russians had that feature in their subs. I wonder why?

stevenwoo 8y ago
Here's a tiny bit of explanation second hand from USN about why the USN does not use them - too much chance for things to go wrong, although that's not surprisng they would say that considering that's what the Soviets said happened on the sunken submarine being discussed. https://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/04/world/rescue-capsule-saved-only-1-on-sinking-soviet-submarine.html https://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/04/world/rescue-capsule-save...
- GCU-Empiricist 8y ago
  On the flip side between where you can get out in a survival suit, where rescue submarines can get to, and places where the people tank will go crunch before you hit the bottom, pretty much everything is covered for USN submarines; it's a very safety conscious community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Escape_Immersion_Equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Escape_Immersion_Equ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Submarine_Rescue_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Submarine_Rescue_System

kakwa_ 8y ago

The Alpha is truly impressive for its time. Fast, very advanced, and also its lines are kind of neat, beautiful curves that spell speed. Also, if you want another design that was quite impressive for its time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine (we are lucky that these didn't go into service 2 years earlier).