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It's easy to say all that when you are not being targeted or having to suffer the interactions that are the problem. Of course you don't see it, that doesn't me

by Latty 8y ago

It's easy to say all that when you are not being targeted or having to suffer the interactions that are the problem. Of course you don't see it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What you are describing is exactly what people want. They want to be able to do something they love and focus on that, not the rest of their world. The issue is that some people do bring it into the conversation. It's not the choice of the people being targeted. These kinds of movements are about trying to ensure that those people can participate without having to deal with abuse. No one is going to accuse you of being bigoted for criticising some code - that's creating a strawman. Imagine you are trans and you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? If you are acting as you say you are, (as most people do!), then you can ignore this stuff completely, because it won't affect you. What it will do, is ensure that people who do see that kind of harassment or abuse can get involved in the projects, and focus on the code. Saying that people trying to stop abuse in FOSS communities are not focusing on the code is like complaining that someone getting punched isn't focusing on the task at hand. They were trying to! Blame the one doing the punching, not the one asking if we can stop them being punched.

josteink 8y ago
> Imagine you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? That's would be a problem anyhow, no matter who is affected. Your ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation is not relevant to that particular case, so why bring it up at all? Why make it the core of your argument?
- vertex-four 8y ago
  Believe it or not, the vast majority of abuse of this sort happens to members of minority groups due primarily to their existence as part of said group. Shock, horror, etc. And do you know what? You're protected by the same code of conduct anyway, even if you do suffer that by some fluke. The Rust Code of Conduct has one line which states "We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all", followed by a listing of example characteristics under which people are commonly discriminated against - the basic assumption being that a person who isn't discriminated against doesn't need to be told that they're welcome, they already know that they are, the same as they don't need to be told that they're welcome before they apply to university or pop into their local bar or decide to rent a place in a "nice" neighbourhood or decide to take a midnight stroll. Later, there's a reference to a list of actions which are commonly considered "harassment", which includes things like "deliberate intimidation, stalking or following", which apply to anybody. Are you a man being sexually harassed by a man, woman, or non-binary person? That's included too, under "unwelcome sexual attention"!
- Latty 8y ago
  It is relevant, because they are the people who get targeted repeatedly. Again, it's easy to say it shouldn't be the focus when you aren't the person getting harassed repeatedly. It's fair that they want to know they can feel safe and contribute to a project - being explicit that they are welcome is important to helping these people overcome the adversity they face. Why is it a problem for you that their issues are voiced? You said before it was a "disproportionate amount of energy being spent", but for the people spending that energy, it's not - it's their work or hobby being messed up time and again, and they are defending it. Beyond that, the work being done is for anybody - it's not limited to those cases - but you say yourself you don't face these problems. These issues affect some people more - so why is it surprising that the solutions focus on them (but not exclusively)?

by Latty 8y ago

josteink 8y ago

> Imagine you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? That's would be a problem anyhow, no matter who is affected. Your ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation is not relevant to that particular case, so why bring it up at all? Why make it the core of your argument?

vertex-four 8y ago
Believe it or not, the vast majority of abuse of this sort happens to members of minority groups due primarily to their existence as part of said group. Shock, horror, etc. And do you know what? You're protected by the same code of conduct anyway, even if you do suffer that by some fluke. The Rust Code of Conduct has one line which states "We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all", followed by a listing of example characteristics under which people are commonly discriminated against - the basic assumption being that a person who isn't discriminated against doesn't need to be told that they're welcome, they already know that they are, the same as they don't need to be told that they're welcome before they apply to university or pop into their local bar or decide to rent a place in a "nice" neighbourhood or decide to take a midnight stroll. Later, there's a reference to a list of actions which are commonly considered "harassment", which includes things like "deliberate intimidation, stalking or following", which apply to anybody. Are you a man being sexually harassed by a man, woman, or non-binary person? That's included too, under "unwelcome sexual attention"!
Latty 8y ago
It is relevant, because they are the people who get targeted repeatedly. Again, it's easy to say it shouldn't be the focus when you aren't the person getting harassed repeatedly. It's fair that they want to know they can feel safe and contribute to a project - being explicit that they are welcome is important to helping these people overcome the adversity they face. Why is it a problem for you that their issues are voiced? You said before it was a "disproportionate amount of energy being spent", but for the people spending that energy, it's not - it's their work or hobby being messed up time and again, and they are defending it. Beyond that, the work being done is for anybody - it's not limited to those cases - but you say yourself you don't face these problems. These issues affect some people more - so why is it surprising that the solutions focus on them (but not exclusively)?