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> You're suggesting that it's better that we allow people to continue harassing people over things that have literally nothing to do with their ability to code

> You're suggesting that it's better that we allow people to continue harassing people over things that have literally nothing to do with their ability to code I don't. That's you misrepresenting my point of view. I've yet to contribute to a project which holds a COC, still I've yet to see any kind of harassament or abuse based on the ethnicity, sex, religious view or age of other contributors. In fact these things have not not ever been a subject. The subject was always the code. My opinion is that we focus on the code, the commits and not who wrote them. Simple as that. Why construe that as me supporting abuse? Yes, that means that if a trans "woman of colour" (or whatever is PC to write these days) submits a bad patch I should be able openly criticize it the same way I would criticize it as if it was written by a straight, white male. And how would I know that? Why should I even be expected to know that in the first place? I'm also against using a disproportionate amount of energy on explicitly focusing on these things which we all agree should not matter. Many of these diversity initiatives do exactly this, and when they do, that's just utterly detracting to the task at hand: crafting good software together. So my opinion is that these things are counter-productive and misguided, and my point is that I've yet to see any proof that I am wrong in holding that opinion. I think that's simple and clear enough, without the need to read any ulterior motives into it. Edit: Clarifications. Examples.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vertex-four 9y ago
Who's writing that code? Do individuals write code and throw it over the wall, never having to talk to another soul? Or does it come from a community of people who have to interact with each other? The practice of FOSS software development is, in part, an exercise in community management. It'd be great if we could all just focus on the code - that's a significant chunk of the point of active community management, so that the developers involved don't have to worry about their safety at conferences, about harassment from other members of the community, about whether they're going to be the only POC/woman/disabled person at the meetup and how to protect themselves from everybody else there, when they just want to build software. The people who want to do more than just build software are the people who decide it'd be a great idea to use their power within the community to harass us, assault us, or more, without social consequence. As a result of FOSS software development being a community activity, figuring out how best to run that community for the benefit of all within it is a necessity. And at some point, you'll find a transphobe and a trans person, a racist and an Indian, a misogynist and a woman, in your community, and something happens - and the question is, what happens then? Do we put huge amounts of effort into trying to teach bigots not to be bigots, or at least shut up about their bigotry within the context of the community? (Yes, the communities I'm part of do this, to a significant degree.) Do we eventually kick out the people causing the trouble, or the victims of it? Do we intentionally create segregated communities so that women never have to meet misogynists and rapists, in order to avoid kicking anybody out? Do we try to avoid conflict from happening, or do we only ever react to it when it does? These are questions that need answering, and nobody will ever agree on the answers to all of them. I've been a part of several communities and suffered harassment in a few of them due to my gender, medical history, and disabilities. Most notable is the hacklab in my previous city where women and people of colour were regularly made to feel uncomfortable by one particular member, and nothing was done about it for months, directly losing us several potential new members. The building it's situated in, up a number of flights of stairs, has lost us multiple members over the years, due to its inaccessibility to people with mobility issues - a problem to be solved, not ignored. A number of friends have received sexual harassment at conferences - I'm picky enough about the conferences I go to that I'm lucky not to have suffered that. I'm also smart enough to figure out that when someone goes off on a rant in a project's IRC channel about how stylistic issues around gendered wording in documentation are going to bring the fall of mankind, I'm probably not going to be accepted there - if someone is that upset about a Bob being changed to a Barbara in the documentation, it's likely they have larger issues with women. I'm glad that you have not suffered any of this, and hope that continues. What, exactly, would you accept as proof that a community has benefited from the existence of its code of conduct and other community management tools?
- mkirklions 9y ago
  > suffered harassment in a few of them How does this stuff even come up? Most websites have basically anonymous usernames. Only when I use my facebook/instagram people will call me a white male. But I dont use that for online communities for the most part, and I mention they are racist for propagating race>merit. While I think people say they wanted to be treated equal, they dont. They want to tell everyone their story and have pitty or debate over themselves.
  - vertex-four 9y ago
    > How does this stuff even come up? Most websites have basically anonymous usernames. Because my photo exists on GitHub - like many men's - and I use my real name. I have no interest in hiding my identity when the men in the same community don't have to, and manage to receive no flack for it. I also occasionally attend conferences, meetups, and so on and so forth, and my various physical attributes are incredibly obvious there.
- josteink 9y ago
  > Who's writing that code? Do individuals write code and throw it over the wall, never having to talk to another soul? Individuals who I respect professionally based on their work and effort, but whose religion and sexual orientation is something I leave to be their own. Same as I leave mine my own and don't try to impose on to others. > And at some point, you'll find a transphobe and a trans person, a racist and an Indian, a misogynist and a woman, in your community, and something happens - and the question is, what happens then? Do we put huge amounts of effort into trying to teach bigots not to be bigots, or at least shut up about their bigotry within the context of the community? If someone is detrimental to the community because of their actions within the community, that makes the resolution fairly obvious without a need to codify this in a document focused mostly on ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation. In case a community member holds opinions outside the project which another member finds objectionable, and which that other member then actively or repeatedly brings into the project, in order to stir conflict or evict others, I also think it's fairly obvious who is causing actual harm to the community. And in those cases I would be very cautious about automatically portraying this offended person as a "victim", because doing so will also automatically portray the other party as a offender, despite this person maybe not having any direct involvement in the "offence" at hand. And then you've created/codified a source of polarization in your community. That's IMO even worse than occasionally having people get offended and squaring up.
Latty 9y ago
It's easy to say all that when you are not being targeted or having to suffer the interactions that are the problem. Of course you don't see it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What you are describing is exactly what people want. They want to be able to do something they love and focus on that, not the rest of their world. The issue is that some people do bring it into the conversation. It's not the choice of the people being targeted. These kinds of movements are about trying to ensure that those people can participate without having to deal with abuse. No one is going to accuse you of being bigoted for criticising some code - that's creating a strawman. Imagine you are trans and you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? If you are acting as you say you are, (as most people do!), then you can ignore this stuff completely, because it won't affect you. What it will do, is ensure that people who do see that kind of harassment or abuse can get involved in the projects, and focus on the code. Saying that people trying to stop abuse in FOSS communities are not focusing on the code is like complaining that someone getting punched isn't focusing on the task at hand. They were trying to! Blame the one doing the punching, not the one asking if we can stop them being punched.
- josteink 9y ago
  > Imagine you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? That's would be a problem anyhow, no matter who is affected. Your ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation is not relevant to that particular case, so why bring it up at all? Why make it the core of your argument?
  - vertex-four 9y ago
    Believe it or not, the vast majority of abuse of this sort happens to members of minority groups due primarily to their existence as part of said group. Shock, horror, etc. And do you know what? You're protected by the same code of conduct anyway, even if you do suffer that by some fluke. The Rust Code of Conduct has one line which states "We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all", followed by a listing of example characteristics under which people are commonly discriminated against - the basic assumption being that a person who isn't discriminated against doesn't need to be told that they're welcome, they already know that they are, the same as they don't need to be told that they're welcome before they apply to university or pop into their local bar or decide to rent a place in a "nice" neighbourhood or decide to take a midnight stroll. Later, there's a reference to a list of actions which are commonly considered "harassment", which includes things like "deliberate intimidation, stalking or following", which apply to anybody. Are you a man being sexually harassed by a man, woman, or non-binary person? That's included too, under "unwelcome sexual attention"!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

vertex-four 9y ago

Who's writing that code? Do individuals write code and throw it over the wall, never having to talk to another soul? Or does it come from a community of people who have to interact with each other? The practice of FOSS software development is, in part, an exercise in community management. It'd be great if we could all just focus on the code - that's a significant chunk of the point of active community management, so that the developers involved don't have to worry about their safety at conferences, about harassment from other members of the community, about whether they're going to be the only POC/woman/disabled person at the meetup and how to protect themselves from everybody else there, when they just want to build software. The people who want to do more than just build software are the people who decide it'd be a great idea to use their power within the community to harass us, assault us, or more, without social consequence. As a result of FOSS software development being a community activity, figuring out how best to run that community for the benefit of all within it is a necessity. And at some point, you'll find a transphobe and a trans person, a racist and an Indian, a misogynist and a woman, in your community, and something happens - and the question is, what happens then? Do we put huge amounts of effort into trying to teach bigots not to be bigots, or at least shut up about their bigotry within the context of the community? (Yes, the communities I'm part of do this, to a significant degree.) Do we eventually kick out the people causing the trouble, or the victims of it? Do we intentionally create segregated communities so that women never have to meet misogynists and rapists, in order to avoid kicking anybody out? Do we try to avoid conflict from happening, or do we only ever react to it when it does? These are questions that need answering, and nobody will ever agree on the answers to all of them. I've been a part of several communities and suffered harassment in a few of them due to my gender, medical history, and disabilities. Most notable is the hacklab in my previous city where women and people of colour were regularly made to feel uncomfortable by one particular member, and nothing was done about it for months, directly losing us several potential new members. The building it's situated in, up a number of flights of stairs, has lost us multiple members over the years, due to its inaccessibility to people with mobility issues - a problem to be solved, not ignored. A number of friends have received sexual harassment at conferences - I'm picky enough about the conferences I go to that I'm lucky not to have suffered that. I'm also smart enough to figure out that when someone goes off on a rant in a project's IRC channel about how stylistic issues around gendered wording in documentation are going to bring the fall of mankind, I'm probably not going to be accepted there - if someone is that upset about a Bob being changed to a Barbara in the documentation, it's likely they have larger issues with women. I'm glad that you have not suffered any of this, and hope that continues. What, exactly, would you accept as proof that a community has benefited from the existence of its code of conduct and other community management tools?

mkirklions 9y ago
> suffered harassment in a few of them How does this stuff even come up? Most websites have basically anonymous usernames. Only when I use my facebook/instagram people will call me a white male. But I dont use that for online communities for the most part, and I mention they are racist for propagating race>merit. While I think people say they wanted to be treated equal, they dont. They want to tell everyone their story and have pitty or debate over themselves.
- vertex-four 9y ago
  > How does this stuff even come up? Most websites have basically anonymous usernames. Because my photo exists on GitHub - like many men's - and I use my real name. I have no interest in hiding my identity when the men in the same community don't have to, and manage to receive no flack for it. I also occasionally attend conferences, meetups, and so on and so forth, and my various physical attributes are incredibly obvious there.
josteink 9y ago
> Who's writing that code? Do individuals write code and throw it over the wall, never having to talk to another soul? Individuals who I respect professionally based on their work and effort, but whose religion and sexual orientation is something I leave to be their own. Same as I leave mine my own and don't try to impose on to others. > And at some point, you'll find a transphobe and a trans person, a racist and an Indian, a misogynist and a woman, in your community, and something happens - and the question is, what happens then? Do we put huge amounts of effort into trying to teach bigots not to be bigots, or at least shut up about their bigotry within the context of the community? If someone is detrimental to the community because of their actions within the community, that makes the resolution fairly obvious without a need to codify this in a document focused mostly on ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation. In case a community member holds opinions outside the project which another member finds objectionable, and which that other member then actively or repeatedly brings into the project, in order to stir conflict or evict others, I also think it's fairly obvious who is causing actual harm to the community. And in those cases I would be very cautious about automatically portraying this offended person as a "victim", because doing so will also automatically portray the other party as a offender, despite this person maybe not having any direct involvement in the "offence" at hand. And then you've created/codified a source of polarization in your community. That's IMO even worse than occasionally having people get offended and squaring up.

Latty 9y ago

It's easy to say all that when you are not being targeted or having to suffer the interactions that are the problem. Of course you don't see it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What you are describing is exactly what people want. They want to be able to do something they love and focus on that, not the rest of their world. The issue is that some people do bring it into the conversation. It's not the choice of the people being targeted. These kinds of movements are about trying to ensure that those people can participate without having to deal with abuse. No one is going to accuse you of being bigoted for criticising some code - that's creating a strawman. Imagine you are trans and you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? If you are acting as you say you are, (as most people do!), then you can ignore this stuff completely, because it won't affect you. What it will do, is ensure that people who do see that kind of harassment or abuse can get involved in the projects, and focus on the code. Saying that people trying to stop abuse in FOSS communities are not focusing on the code is like complaining that someone getting punched isn't focusing on the task at hand. They were trying to! Blame the one doing the punching, not the one asking if we can stop them being punched.

josteink 9y ago
> Imagine you offer up some changes, and they are rejected out of hand. You get a twitter DM full of abusive language. Should they have not had a twitter account with the same name as their github account where they talk about personal issues? That's would be a problem anyhow, no matter who is affected. Your ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation is not relevant to that particular case, so why bring it up at all? Why make it the core of your argument?
- vertex-four 9y ago
  Believe it or not, the vast majority of abuse of this sort happens to members of minority groups due primarily to their existence as part of said group. Shock, horror, etc. And do you know what? You're protected by the same code of conduct anyway, even if you do suffer that by some fluke. The Rust Code of Conduct has one line which states "We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all", followed by a listing of example characteristics under which people are commonly discriminated against - the basic assumption being that a person who isn't discriminated against doesn't need to be told that they're welcome, they already know that they are, the same as they don't need to be told that they're welcome before they apply to university or pop into their local bar or decide to rent a place in a "nice" neighbourhood or decide to take a midnight stroll. Later, there's a reference to a list of actions which are commonly considered "harassment", which includes things like "deliberate intimidation, stalking or following", which apply to anybody. Are you a man being sexually harassed by a man, woman, or non-binary person? That's included too, under "unwelcome sexual attention"!