5 ms·

Maybe communism vs freedom?

robbiep 9y ago
That’s a false dichotomy. China is ostensibly commmunist but free market is alive and well (with heavy doses of state directed influence, but so as in other western countries, witness the military industrial complex) A truer dichotomy would be between a rigid semi-dictatorship and quasi-democracy... given that even China has token democracy at some levels despite now essentially having a rubber stamped dictator, and many western states are a long way from true democracy - the voting system in the US hardly allows representative democracy and special interest groups are adept at manipulating voting blocs very effectively, and is 2 party democracy really democracy? Other countries do better jobs (ie Australia’s preferential voting, germany’s Proportional representation) but you can argue that till the cows come home
- madengr 9y ago
  The USA, with all it’s faults, is still based on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. China is based on communism with democide of 10’s of millions. Can I buy a porn magazine, a bag of weed, and assault rifle in China? Hell, the party chairman is now chairman for life.
  - robbiep 9y ago
    You can certainly buy the first 2, and is the third really a benefit to any civilised society? I say this as a gun owner
    - madengr 9y ago
      It’s a benefit to a free society.
      - robbiep 9y ago
        Because all of those (western) countries where you can’t buy an assault rifle are such despotic hell holes? It’s a benefit to no one except the manufacturers, the merchants and the people who patch the injured up. And as someone who patches the injured up, I’d prefer not to
        madengr 9y ago
        WWII Europe had plenty of dictators, and will probably be a caliphate by the end of this century. I’ll keep my freedom and guns.
        tryme78 8y ago
        log off, idiot
        dang 8y ago
        We've banned this account.
        dang 8y ago
        We've asked you numerous times to stop breaking the site guidelines, such as with national or religious flamebait. If you can't or won't stop, we're going to end up banning you, so please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this going forward.
    - 089723645897236 9y ago
      Unequivocally yes.
  - throwaway7312 9y ago
    >> China is based on communism China is no longer about communism any more than the U.S. is about the Enlightenment. China today is about Gilded Age-type capitalism with a strain of collectivism running through it. Every Chinese today is caught up in a mad scramble for personal enrichment, often at the expense of his fellow man. Most American Marxists would shrink back in horror at the capitalist fever that grips the average Chinese. Even most of those on America's political right do not have the stomach for the level of Gordon Gecko-ness that animates many Chinese. While many on the American right prefer to retreat to dens, family, and countryside, Chinese capitalists are busily trying to get rich any way they can (ethically or otherwise). The Chinese Communist Party functions the same way Chinese government has functioned for thousands of years. Anyone can join, if he can pass the necessary tests. Passing tests to gain a coveted spot in the government has been a national priority since before Confucius's day, 2.5 millennia ago, and continues to be today. China does not have legally enshrined freedom of speech. But at a societal level, the 'real' freedom of speech is greater than what I've experienced in America. In America, you must very carefully watch your words, lest you offend any of a number of easily offended groups. You won't go to jail for it (unlike certain parts of Western Europe - Germany and Britain, for instance), but you will lose friends and you may lose your job. The result is that while speech may be legal in America, it ends up stifled nevertheless. Large chunks of American society no longer value free speech, and there is actual debate in many corners of the country about whether certain speech ('hate speech') should be outlawed. In China, so long as you do not loudly criticize or subvert the Chinese government, you are free to speak your mind - and won't be harassed by the government OR be James Damore'd / Donglegate'd out of a job. As for the "10s of millions dead", there's extremely good reason to be skeptical of these claims.[1] They become harder and harder to swallow the more older, Mao-era Chinese you talk with - most of whom, no matter where in the countryside they hail from, know of no one who died of starvation or malnutrition. The press is the propaganda arm of a nation's powerful - whether in China or America. Don't believe it just because they tell you to. [1] http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/ http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-f...
    - Slansitartop 9y ago
      > China today is about Gilded Age-type capitalism with a strain of collectivism running through it. From what I gather, this is unfortunately true. > The Chinese Communist Party functions the same way Chinese government has functioned for thousands of years. Anyone can join, if he can pass the necessary tests. Passing tests to gain a coveted spot in the government has been a national priority since before Confucius's day, 2.5 millennia ago, and continues to be today. Nah. I don't think you have to pass any tests. You get into the party if you or your parents have the right connections or are willing to bribe the right people. > China does not have legally enshrined freedom of speech. But at a societal level, the 'real' freedom of speech is greater than what I've experienced in America. In America, you must very carefully watch your words, lest you offend any of a number of easily offended groups. China doesn't have "real" freedom of speech because you can voice your personal prejudices with fewer social repercussions. China is literally throwing defense lawyers in jail because they have the temerity to defend their clients against the government prosecutors! https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusade-of-chinas-human-rights-lawyers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... There is no "real" freedom of speech in China in any way. Try to organize a protest march against Xi Jinping in China and let me know if you still think that "the 'real' freedom of speech is greater in China."
- ksec 9y ago
  You can certainly do business in China, but I will hardly call it open or free market, this is knowing full well most western countries have some form of protection. The double standard in many places, even by regulation and law. I am still hopeful they will open up more in the future, nearly 20 years since the joining of WTO.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  >> Maybe communism vs freedom? > That’s a false dichotomy. China is ostensibly commmunist but free market is alive and well (with heavy doses of state directed influence, but so as in other western countries, witness the military industrial complex) "Freedom" does not mean only the "free market." China is certainly against many things Westerners would consider necessary for freedom: > Communist Party cadres have filled meeting halls around China to hear a somber, secretive warning issued by senior leaders. Power could escape their grip, they have been told, unless the party eradicates seven subversive currents coursing through Chinese society. > These seven perils were enumerated in a memo, referred to as Document No. 9, that bears the unmistakable imprimatur of Xi Jinping, China’s new top leader. The first was “Western constitutional democracy”; others included promoting “universal values” of human rights, Western-inspired notions of media independence and civic participation, ardently pro-market “neo-liberalism,” and “nihilist” criticisms of the party’s traumatic past. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-leadership-takes-hard-line-in-secret-memo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea... The Chinese communist party literally opposed to constitutional democracy (meaning checks on its power), human rights and accurate, nonpartisan history.
sametmax 9y ago
I rather see relaxed dictatorship vs comfortable oligarchy, if i'm being honest.
andrepd 9y ago
Amazing, not one of those words are correct. China is an ultracapitalist oligarchy, communist in nothing but name. The USA has been responsible for so many atrocities against self-determination of peoples, in the name of imperialism, that when someone paints them as "freedom bringers" I know not whether to laugh or cry.
- tome 9y ago
  A couple of things that I find interesting to think about. Firstly, are the people of the USA freer than the people of China? I find that quite an easy question to answer. Secondly, a harder one. Are the people of Chile freer of less free than they would have counterfactually been if the USSR had come to dominate Latin America (and won the Cold War into the bargain)?
  - andrepd 8y ago
    To your first point: yes, quite an easy question indeed. However saying "A is ok because B does it even worse" is hardly a convincing argument. To your second point: I don't know, yet in my opinion it should be left to the people of that country to decide what they want for themselves, don't you think? -_- "Democracy!", scream the US patriots, yet meddling and overthrowing democratically elected rulers when it doesn't align with their interests, under the flimsy excuse of "they didn't make the right choice, we know better, with our dictator they will be more free than with their choice". Just doesn't sit right with me.

That’s a false dichotomy. China is ostensibly commmunist but free market is alive and well (with heavy doses of state directed influence, but so as in other western countries, witness the military industrial complex) A truer dichotomy would be between a rigid semi-dictatorship and quasi-democracy... given that even China has token democracy at some levels despite now essentially having a rubber stamped dictator, and many western states are a long way from true democracy - the voting system in the US hardly allows representative democracy and special interest groups are adept at manipulating voting blocs very effectively, and is 2 party democracy really democracy? Other countries do better jobs (ie Australia’s preferential voting, germany’s Proportional representation) but you can argue that till the cows come home

madengr 9y ago
The USA, with all it’s faults, is still based on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. China is based on communism with democide of 10’s of millions. Can I buy a porn magazine, a bag of weed, and assault rifle in China? Hell, the party chairman is now chairman for life.
- robbiep 9y ago
  You can certainly buy the first 2, and is the third really a benefit to any civilised society? I say this as a gun owner
  - madengr 9y ago
    It’s a benefit to a free society.
    - robbiep 9y ago
      Because all of those (western) countries where you can’t buy an assault rifle are such despotic hell holes? It’s a benefit to no one except the manufacturers, the merchants and the people who patch the injured up. And as someone who patches the injured up, I’d prefer not to
      - madengr 9y ago
        WWII Europe had plenty of dictators, and will probably be a caliphate by the end of this century. I’ll keep my freedom and guns.
        tryme78 8y ago
        log off, idiot
        dang 8y ago
        We've banned this account.
        dang 8y ago
        We've asked you numerous times to stop breaking the site guidelines, such as with national or religious flamebait. If you can't or won't stop, we're going to end up banning you, so please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this going forward.
  - 089723645897236 9y ago
    Unequivocally yes.
- throwaway7312 9y ago
  >> China is based on communism China is no longer about communism any more than the U.S. is about the Enlightenment. China today is about Gilded Age-type capitalism with a strain of collectivism running through it. Every Chinese today is caught up in a mad scramble for personal enrichment, often at the expense of his fellow man. Most American Marxists would shrink back in horror at the capitalist fever that grips the average Chinese. Even most of those on America's political right do not have the stomach for the level of Gordon Gecko-ness that animates many Chinese. While many on the American right prefer to retreat to dens, family, and countryside, Chinese capitalists are busily trying to get rich any way they can (ethically or otherwise). The Chinese Communist Party functions the same way Chinese government has functioned for thousands of years. Anyone can join, if he can pass the necessary tests. Passing tests to gain a coveted spot in the government has been a national priority since before Confucius's day, 2.5 millennia ago, and continues to be today. China does not have legally enshrined freedom of speech. But at a societal level, the 'real' freedom of speech is greater than what I've experienced in America. In America, you must very carefully watch your words, lest you offend any of a number of easily offended groups. You won't go to jail for it (unlike certain parts of Western Europe - Germany and Britain, for instance), but you will lose friends and you may lose your job. The result is that while speech may be legal in America, it ends up stifled nevertheless. Large chunks of American society no longer value free speech, and there is actual debate in many corners of the country about whether certain speech ('hate speech') should be outlawed. In China, so long as you do not loudly criticize or subvert the Chinese government, you are free to speak your mind - and won't be harassed by the government OR be James Damore'd / Donglegate'd out of a job. As for the "10s of millions dead", there's extremely good reason to be skeptical of these claims.[1] They become harder and harder to swallow the more older, Mao-era Chinese you talk with - most of whom, no matter where in the countryside they hail from, know of no one who died of starvation or malnutrition. The press is the propaganda arm of a nation's powerful - whether in China or America. Don't believe it just because they tell you to. [1] http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/ http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-f...
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    > China today is about Gilded Age-type capitalism with a strain of collectivism running through it. From what I gather, this is unfortunately true. > The Chinese Communist Party functions the same way Chinese government has functioned for thousands of years. Anyone can join, if he can pass the necessary tests. Passing tests to gain a coveted spot in the government has been a national priority since before Confucius's day, 2.5 millennia ago, and continues to be today. Nah. I don't think you have to pass any tests. You get into the party if you or your parents have the right connections or are willing to bribe the right people. > China does not have legally enshrined freedom of speech. But at a societal level, the 'real' freedom of speech is greater than what I've experienced in America. In America, you must very carefully watch your words, lest you offend any of a number of easily offended groups. China doesn't have "real" freedom of speech because you can voice your personal prejudices with fewer social repercussions. China is literally throwing defense lawyers in jail because they have the temerity to defend their clients against the government prosecutors! https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusade-of-chinas-human-rights-lawyers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... There is no "real" freedom of speech in China in any way. Try to organize a protest march against Xi Jinping in China and let me know if you still think that "the 'real' freedom of speech is greater in China."
ksec 9y ago
You can certainly do business in China, but I will hardly call it open or free market, this is knowing full well most western countries have some form of protection. The double standard in many places, even by regulation and law. I am still hopeful they will open up more in the future, nearly 20 years since the joining of WTO.
Slansitartop 9y ago
>> Maybe communism vs freedom? > That’s a false dichotomy. China is ostensibly commmunist but free market is alive and well (with heavy doses of state directed influence, but so as in other western countries, witness the military industrial complex) "Freedom" does not mean only the "free market." China is certainly against many things Westerners would consider necessary for freedom: > Communist Party cadres have filled meeting halls around China to hear a somber, secretive warning issued by senior leaders. Power could escape their grip, they have been told, unless the party eradicates seven subversive currents coursing through Chinese society. > These seven perils were enumerated in a memo, referred to as Document No. 9, that bears the unmistakable imprimatur of Xi Jinping, China’s new top leader. The first was “Western constitutional democracy”; others included promoting “universal values” of human rights, Western-inspired notions of media independence and civic participation, ardently pro-market “neo-liberalism,” and “nihilist” criticisms of the party’s traumatic past. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-leadership-takes-hard-line-in-secret-memo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea... The Chinese communist party literally opposed to constitutional democracy (meaning checks on its power), human rights and accurate, nonpartisan history.

sametmax 9y ago

I rather see relaxed dictatorship vs comfortable oligarchy, if i'm being honest.

andrepd 9y ago

Amazing, not one of those words are correct. China is an ultracapitalist oligarchy, communist in nothing but name. The USA has been responsible for so many atrocities against self-determination of peoples, in the name of imperialism, that when someone paints them as "freedom bringers" I know not whether to laugh or cry.

tome 9y ago
A couple of things that I find interesting to think about. Firstly, are the people of the USA freer than the people of China? I find that quite an easy question to answer. Secondly, a harder one. Are the people of Chile freer of less free than they would have counterfactually been if the USSR had come to dominate Latin America (and won the Cold War into the bargain)?
- andrepd 8y ago
  To your first point: yes, quite an easy question indeed. However saying "A is ok because B does it even worse" is hardly a convincing argument. To your second point: I don't know, yet in my opinion it should be left to the people of that country to decide what they want for themselves, don't you think? -_- "Democracy!", scream the US patriots, yet meddling and overthrowing democratically elected rulers when it doesn't align with their interests, under the flimsy excuse of "they didn't make the right choice, we know better, with our dictator they will be more free than with their choice". Just doesn't sit right with me.