21 ms·

List of screw drives

303 points by gasull 8y ago

tlb 8y ago
It's remarkable that pretty much every feasible design has some traction. You might expect it to be winner-take-all.
- mtreis86 8y ago
  A lot of them are designed specifically to make it difficult for the average person to open without specialized tools.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Some of it is to thwart legit owners of things, but also a fair amount to deter casual vandalism or even saboteurs.
- pacificmint 8y ago
  I suspect the tool industry has a strong incentive to keep as many of them as possible in use. I have a feeling that they push new designs to manufacturers as being 'tamper-proof', then once sufficiently adopted, push them to the sales channel to be open to open these tamper-proof screws. Repeat as needed to keep revenue up.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
    Not to mention they could also have metric and imperial systems like hex keys...
- taneq 8y ago
  I think it's a case of it being counterproductive to try to standardise. Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
- 13of40 8y ago
  We're probably at 80% Phillips, 15% flat head, 5% everything else, though.
  - jstanley 8y ago
    That largely depends on which country you're looking at, which industry you're looking at, and whether or not you recognise the difference between Phillips and pozidriv.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  It might be in the long run. Torx is the clear common-place winner, but it was patent-encumbered for a long time. I bet even Ikea will switch to them eventually.
geofree 8y ago
I'm partial to Mortorq, or at least drawn to the name... https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/ccaafc61-fd54-4904-aa97-e73e532da986 https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/ccaafc61-fd54-4904-aa97-e73e532da9...
bluedino 8y ago
I was kind of hoping this was going to be about ball screws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_screw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_screw
- namibj 8y ago
  Rest assured, I was hoping for a detailed comparison and explanation of the differences between them and e.g. Roller Screws. Advocating for Torx seems to be nice though.
joshu 8y ago
Do you find yourself stripping Phillips head acres frequently? That is because you are confusing Phillips and Pozidriv heads. They look similar but have a different head and different amount of engagement. I just bought myself some Wiha drivers after years of using shitty tools. I am so much happier now.
- SAI_Peregrinus 8y ago
  Even using the correct drivers Phillips head screws tend to strip. I have both drivers, and the Pozidriv screws seem to strip quite a lot less frequently than the Phillips. Of course neither strips as rarely as Torx, Allen, or Robinson. Hex bolts are also great.
  - slededit 8y ago
    Phillips screws are design to have the driver leave the socket if it is over-torqued. Frequently people keep going after this has occurred which results in stripped heads, but if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen.
    - stephen_g 8y ago
      I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few months or years - even when they had been properly torqued with a torque wrench. We abandoned Phillips and Pozidriv completely and went to Torx for the screws (we were already using hex for bolts). Haven’t really had any issues stripping out screws since.
      - slededit 8y ago
        Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.
analog31 8y ago
I suspect that aside from tamper proof designs, most screw head development is driven from the manufacturing or assembly side. After all, most screws will never be unscrewed.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > After all, most screws will never be unscrewed. That's because they don't want you to unscrew them. There's a bit of a feedback loop here - the less user-serviceable stuff you make, the less users expect to be able to fix things themselves, so there's less need to make next things user-serviceable.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    Totally. I'm a bit shocked how effective this is. For years the sight of a torx or rarer socket would stop me from even thinking about opening a device. I don't know if it was impossible to find before but today you can buy most heads easily. And when you think about it, it's just a damn contact surface for a lever.. don't stop (unless there's a real safety hazard)
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Same here. The first couple of years I encountered torx sockets, I called them "those ones they put to prevent you from repairing things". The drivers weren't impossible to find, but they also weren't commonplace. It was doubly annoying when I had devices that had regular cruciform sockets (that I could even handle with a knife if in a hurry) on the outside, but then suddenly torx sockets inside.
      - agumonkey 8y ago
        oh yeah the partial disassembly is frustrating after a year of toying with devices and watching people on youtube I'm a lot more unorthodox.. anything goes as long as it's not too stupid. Yesterday I used a knife and a wrench to open a braun toothbrush.
hungerstrike 8y ago
It seems like choosing a screw drive is almost as difficult as choosing which programming library, framework or environment to use. Well, maybe not. New ones probably aren’t added quite as often.
- analog31 8y ago
  I work for a company that makes scientific equipment. We apply a few basic criteria, which narrow things down a lot. First, a lot of those fasteners are either really specialized or just rare or obsolete. So they can be ruled out. We look for something that will be easy for our assemblers, and for our field service technicians. They have given us feedback on what they like and dislike, including what kinds of tools are common in different parts of the world. They hate flat head screws. Hex socket screws are really easy, and it's also easy to make them look nice on an assembly. To an increasing extent, we want tools that can be used with a torque handle. For instance hex drive is better than Philips in that regard. I hate to say that it's still a work in progress, but we are heroically trying to get away from fractional drivers, especially for our field technicians who presently have to carry full sets of US and metric tools. We even have mixtures of US and metric in some products! If something is meant to be serviced by a customer (e.g., a lamp or filter that gets replaced), then we stick with Philips, which we are told is common worldwide. Or we use a captive knurled fastener if it's in a place where there's finger access. So these are just a few thoughts. Other considerations are whether you're in an industry that has already standardized on a particular tool set, such as metric allen wrenches for bikes.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    > We even have mixtures of US and metric in some products! In North America, tire sizes are given in millimeter width, but imperial mounting diameter. E.g. 175-65R14: 175mm width, 65% aspect ratio (sidewall height to width or something like that), for a 14" wheel.
    - hangonhn 8y ago
      I noticed that the other day too! Dumb question but what does the rest of the world do? Do they convert inches to mm or is the inches diameter just an approximation of the more exact metric diameters?
thought_alarm 8y ago
In Canada there is a saying: Anyone who doesn't use a Robertson head is just being an asshole.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- colanderman 8y ago
  Unfortunately Robertson bits are rare south of the Canadian border. I have lots of "universal" bit sets, and only one came with a set of Robertsons. (Most did come with square bits, but these are apparently not the same as Robertson, either in dimension or shape.)
  - ken 8y ago
    Not rare at all in the US, in my experience. I've been doing some construction and tear-down work recently, and it's about 60% Torx, 40% Robertson.
- eight_ender 8y ago
  YES. Robbie for construction, Torx and Triple Square for cars. I've never had a problem with those three. Philips, Posi and Hex strip like crazy.
- bdickason 8y ago
  Stupid question but I've been doing alot of construction lately and using Torx (25 I think?) for everything. What's the advantage of Robertson screws? (in particular for woodworking)
  - jammi 8y ago
    Robertson in Canada is just appeal to tradition at this point. They have no technical merit over Torx except maybe ease of ad-hoc construction of a driver.
  - skykooler 8y ago
    Robertson are generally cheaper than Torx, for one thing.
askvictor 8y ago
I'd like to see the development of these on a timeline, including the rise of power tools. I suspect that hex, torx, and similar are only feasible due to torque-control being available on modern driving tools; prior to that the screw had to be able to disengage (cam out) to prevent it breaking.
- rwbcxrz 8y ago
  You might enjoy this article from about 6 months ago (as I did). It doesn't get into torx or hex drives, but covers quite a bit of history of Phillips-like drives. http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/ http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phi... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748942
- dugditches 8y ago
  This touches on what you're talking about. If you have the time the entire video's a gem of history screw history touching on Nails going into screw coatings, drives, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3jG5xtSQAo#t=5m05s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3jG5xtSQAo#t=5m05s
appleCored 8y ago
What, no pentalobe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentalobe_security_screw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentalobe_security_screw
- grzm 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pentalobe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pentalobe
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Not sure how common in the rest of the world it is, but in New Zealand it's quite common to have screws that are a combo-bit, and accept Phillips/pozi drive and also Robertson drive. The construction industry is a bit split between Pozi and Robertson, or at least it was a few years ago. Robertson drive is an amazing drive for construction work. The screws stick nicely onto magnetised drivers, so that you can screw them into awkward locations, and they're really resistant to stripping the head. In this day and age, you can set the maximum torque on most electric screwdrivers/drills, so there's no need for a drive that intrinsically limits the torque like Phillips drives.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- linsomniac 8y ago
  I first noticed this on electrical components like switches, receptacles, and breakers here in the US, a few months ago. All the screws on the devices themselves are flat, Phillips (maybe Pozi, didn't check) and square. I was remodeling my kitchen and adding some circuits, replacing all the devices, and pigtailing all the old Aluminum. Those multi-driver heads are pretty wonderful!
jgibson 8y ago
As a teenager I stripped nearly all the screws holding the crankcase of my motorcycle together before realizing that JIS was different from Phillips. Didn't help that most of the old steel screws had seized against the aluminium crankcase. After a few unsuccessful attempts with an impact driver, I ended up just welding nuts to the heads, waiting for the heat to soak, then then wrenching them off. Then threw the lot out and replaced them with something sensible - stainless internal hex head screws. I guess the original theory for JIS was that its easier to replace a screw you've mangled then it is to replace the internal thread you stripped by over torquing it.
- Gracana 8y ago
  I had similar experiences. Buying a set of JIS screwdrivers was one of the best decisions I ever made. They even work on screws that have been mangled by improper tools. I haven't stripped a screw head since, though I've had to use an impact driver on a few really stubborn ones.
- barrkel 8y ago
  Stainless will sieze in aluminium much easier than plain steel due to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion . Anti-sieze copper paste recommended if stainless is used, and it's often not a bad idea in any case.
  - jgibson 8y ago
    Yeah, I definitely had some of that around, although I think I used the nickel stuff as it was cheaper. Reminds me of this quote: "The key to motorcycle maintenance is knowing when to use anti-sieze and when to use thread-locker"
- meuk 8y ago
  I was just about to post something about the amount of screws I strip... I might want to look into this, ha!
jimnotgym 8y ago
In the UK construction industry the pozidrive has long been the most used, followed by some special purpose designs using torx. Sometimes kitchens would come with the same crappy phillips screws as flatpack furniture. However belt feed drywall screws were always phillips. In fact most drywall screws were. It always infuriated me if you wanted to put some extras in with a drill (or take some out) that you had to go searching for a PH2. I wondered if there was some special reason for it persisting with drywall screws, especially when screwing drywall is relative new to the UK, with most being nailed up until maybe 15 years ago? Auto feed drywall guns cam out like crazy... Now I also wonder why we would always call the drywall "plasterboard" yet call the screws for it "drywall screws"!
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  > Now I also wonder why we would always call the drywall "plasterboard" yet call the screws for it "drywall screws"! Especially as the nails are known as "plasterboard nails" ;)
- bluGill 8y ago
  drywall is the only place where phillips still makes sense: you will never remove them anyway and the cam out feature cams out at the right place. Note that drywall screws are brittle and worthless for anything other tan drywall even though people use them for almost anything. On the rare case you need to remove drywall you break it out, and then break the screws off.
jammi 8y ago
The only real reason for Phillips screw heads were the old electromechanical industry robots that would rely on auto-centering and spring tension to pop the driver out of the screw against a switch at the set torque. Modern (since 1980s or so) industry robots are computer-driven and torque-sensing. Phillips (and Pozidriv) needs to die in favor of modern superior screw drive designs like Torx.
- collyw 8y ago
  Out of interest what is better about Torx? With "normal" screws you can usually improvise something when you are without tools.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    You can usually "improvise" with a torx using a flat head screwdriver - it it locks in place it will turn.
  - blhack 8y ago
    They don't strip, or at least it would take a tremendous amount of torque to strip them. My experience has been that the driver strips before the head does.
    - jammi 8y ago
      Usually the screw snaps in two at over-torquing before either the head or tool strips.
      - hvidgaard 8y ago
        I've had that happen a few times. It's super annoying, but that what you get when not paying for the quality screws.
        jammi 8y ago
        Happens with the better ones as well, it's just a matter of setting the torque limiter of your screwdriver/coordless drill to match the job. Sometimes takes a few mistakes, but it's safer to start with a low setting and adjust up until you have the right torque for the screw.
blhack 8y ago
As far as I'm concerned, torx is the only reasonable screw anymore. It seems like most construction screws (at least in the US) have moved to this. Just to make the point: I've stripped out more torx drivers than I have torx heads. I can say I truly don't understand how phillips ever even took hold over flatheads. Cheap phillips head screws seem designed to strip out. Somebody elsewhere in this thread made the point that they are self-centering, and make industrial manufacturing easier. I guess that makes sense.
- micheljansen 8y ago
  As someone who has just remodelled an old house with loads of flatheads: you've got to be kidding me. I hate those things with a passion. Flathead screws only restrict the movement of the screwdriver in one dimension and allow it to move in the other one. This leads to the screwdriver to keep sliding out when you put force on under even the slightest angle. Phillips screws improve on this design by restricting movement in two dimensions and force the screwdriver to always be in the center, but they slip easily and wear quickly. Torx are superior because they fit much more "snugly", though at the (minor) cost of being less forgiving of using the wrong size of screwdriver.
  - blhack 8y ago
    Yeah that's fair. I guess I was thinking of flatheads as small machine screws and things like that, where only a few rotations are actually necessary.
  - kbrosnan 8y ago
    An advantage of flathead is that it is easy to unfoul the screw head. A minute with a utility knife or a flathead screwdriver will clear the channel of dirt or paint. I would not want to deal with a torx that has several layers of paint dried into it.
    - micheljansen 8y ago
      I have fortunately not had to experience that. I guess a special screw extractor tool might be the only option then.
SwellJoe 8y ago
I had to buy a set of tripoint drivers to open up and work on Gameboys. That was annoying (I've never seen them anywhere else). For some reason my RV (an old 1984 Avion) uses Robertson screws nearly everywhere, which is actually nice. The big chunky square holds up to rust and corrosion better than Phillips. Kinda wish more things used Robertson.
B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
Once I found that a simple, cheap clothes iron was defended against would-be worn wire fixers (me) by a flat screw slot with a protruding center pin. Fortunately I had a small sharp file to cut a notch in a cheap flat-bladed screwdriver, and all was well. The device doesn't seem to be listed here.
DEFCON28 8y ago
I like the skrillex
burfog 8y ago
I like the connectors that were used on the Capsela toys. The two mating parts were identical, each with three prongs. It looks like a radiation symbol that is missing the center dot. An interesting property is that there would be no need to carefully match the diameter.
andrewaylett 8y ago
I find it interesting that so many people here see the choice as being between Phillips and Torx -- all the time I was growing up (in the UK), Torx bits were incredibly difficult to get hold of while Pozidriv became more and more common, to the point where I don't think I've any loose non-Pozidriv screws in the house, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone selling Torx screws.
oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
This is like the first-panel setup for an xkcd strip.
walrus01 8y ago
If you work with wood/carpentry construction in Canada, a higher percentage of things are square drive (Robertson). They were less common until recently in the USA due to patent licensing issues.
bhaavan 8y ago
Will this data make it to a Sheldon dialog in The Big Bang Theory?
ktosobcy 8y ago
it misses sonic screwdriver (sorry, couldn't help myself)
nfriedly 8y ago
When my wife and I bought our house, I thought the previous owner had stripped the hell out of some Phillips screws... then I learned what Robertson (square) screws were. After getting the proper bit though, I’ve started to really appreciate them. I don’t think I’ve ever stripped a single one.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  Robertson is excellent but they seem to be a uniquely Canadian phenomenon. My company ships robots to the US in big crates, and we've had to switch to building them with Philips screws instead because of issues with local availability.
  - nfriedly 8y ago
    I'm in Ohio, but I guess that's close to Canada. The bit was pretty easy to find in the first hardware store I tried.
    - fhood 8y ago
      Super common where I live in the US as well. Lots of wood screws use them, but they show up in pretty much every fastener application.
  - sophacles 8y ago
    Maybe it's a regional thing? Here in the midwest US the hardware stores carry them and Phillips, in about 50:50 proportion -- At least for construction screws (decking screws for example) this is true. Most of the contractors I know locally prefer them as well.
    - linsomniac 8y ago
      They are around here, but I'd say star point (not sure if they are double square or Torx), seem to be as prevalent at Home Depot as Robertson. I'm in Colorado, so on the cusp of the West.
    - 8y ago
HaifaHacker 8y ago
My favorite is the skrillex head.
droidist2 8y ago
It's interesting that a lot of these variants were/are being created as security or tamper-proof mechanisms, a real world type of "security through obscurity" (although a different type of obscurity than is usually meant by that phrase). Then it becomes not obscure enough and they make a new type of screw.
- Deestan 8y ago
  Security through inconvenience?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
I_complete_me 8y ago
There's a lovely little book called "One Good Turn" by Witold Rybczynski subtitled 'A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw' A pure delight for those interested in such things like me.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
It's all about force and material properties. The drive type doesn't matter as long as it can handle the force it will see. If the tool and the fastener fit well the limitation is usually whatever has the smallest minor diameter.
Lionsion 8y ago
Important FYI for any Americans who don't know: Ikea screws are not Phillips, they're actually Pozidriv, which is different enough to matter. Do not use a Phillips screwdriver to assemble Ikea furnature, as that combination will easily cam out and ruin the (typically soft metal) screw. It's easiest to buy the correct Pozidriv screwdriver bits from Ikea, but they're also available online. My understanding is that Pozidriv is as popular in Europe as Phillips is in America. They look so similar that you probably won't know the difference unless you're told about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pozidriv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pozidriv: > Pozidriv and Phillips are not interchangeable. While Pozidriv screwdrivers fit Phillips screws, they may slip or tear out the Phillips screw head. Conversely, while Phillips screwdrivers will loosely fit and turn Pozidriv screws, they will cam out if enough torque is applied, potentially damaging the screw head or screwdriver.
- mattmillr 8y ago
  Ikea sells a $8 tool set that includes three sizes of Pozidriv bits - and other bits that perfectly fit their various connectors. It's well worth the cost if you're planning to assemble anything you got from IKEA and not lose your mind.
  - pasbesoin 8y ago
    They also have, or had, a circa $25 corded drill kit for sale (going by memory of briefly seeing, a year or two ago). If someone doesn't have a drill and is contemplating purchasing and constructing a substantial piece of IKEA furniture, such as my parent's TV stand -- lots of bits to screw together. Under those circumstances, I suggest maybe they want to buy one of the drill kits. I expect you can get a better corded drill elsewhere, and buy the relevant bits, for not much more. But, KISS, with regard to the amount of shopping to be done. P.S. Well, what do you know. US $20, now, and cordless. https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00196101/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00196101/
    - mindslight 8y ago
devy 8y ago
I like Steve Ramsey's Woodworking Basics 101 on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GiYrFyNVUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GiYrFyNVUU
joncrane 8y ago
Interesting historical point: Apple started using the pentalobe fasteners in their iPhones in order to make it more difficult for end users to service their phones. https://www.ifixit.com/blog/2011/01/20/apples-diabolical-plan-to-screw-your-iphone/ https://www.ifixit.com/blog/2011/01/20/apples-diabolical-pla...
- ddacunha 8y ago
  Is this the reason they have switched to Pentalobe screw. I have googled for material but couldn't find anything. Pentalobe screws are not that hard to find and considering the popularity of Apple devices, they will get easier to find. When I compare them to Torx screws I suppose the points rounder shape makes the screwdriver more resistant, which may be an advantage when assembly millions. I am no expert, and I would appreciate if someone has an informed opinion.
  - joncrane 8y ago
    Well, let's try the counterargument approach. Given what we know about fasteners (you need look no further than this thread), why else would Apple choose Pentalobe, of all the options?
lamename 8y ago
# of arguments about screw drives = # screw drives ! Great fun
mauvehaus 8y ago
If you keep stripping Phillips head screws, and they aren't Pozidriv (or JIS)[0], it could be that you should buy better screwdrivers. Well made screw drivers engage the head much more postively than poorly made ones. Unfortunately, virtually everything available in the muggle tool aisle is poorly made. This includes Kobalt, Husky, and Craftsman. I've owned screwdrivers made by all 3, and none of them can hold a candle to a truly good screwdriver. If you want good screw drivers, Klein makes excellent ones. Klein's target market is electricians, and you can sometimes find them in the electrical aisle in muggle stores. Alternately, an electrical supply house (i.e. a wizard store) will probably stock them (or something equally good). Expect to pay $10 USD per screwdriver. It's worth it. The other option I can personally vouch for is the Snap-On. Their market is principally mechanics. I haven't bought any, only used a friends, so I can't comment on how to buy them (online or find a truck, I'd imagine), or what to expect to pay. TL;DR: Shop where the pros shop if you want good tools. For most pros, the most expensive part of a job is their time, so it's worth not having tools that take up a lot of it because they aren't good. Quick and mostly accurate test for is a store a wizard store or a muggle store: Are they open on weekends? If so, odds are it's a muggle store. [0] JIS is also superficially similar to Pozidriv and Phillips, and also mutually incompatible. Honda apparently uses them. I found out when I mentioned I destroyed a P2 impact bit on a stuck screw (from America's leading purveyor of single-use tools, admittedly) on a Honda form. I was educated. ETA: Not a pro in the domain of electricity or mechanics, but as a woodworker, it's important to have good screwdrivers to avoid stripping brass screws, which are much softer than steel.
floatboth 8y ago
In Russia, no one knows what "philips" and "pozidriv" are, it's all just "cross" lol

303 points by gasull 8y ago

tlb 8y ago

It's remarkable that pretty much every feasible design has some traction. You might expect it to be winner-take-all.

mtreis86 8y ago
A lot of them are designed specifically to make it difficult for the average person to open without specialized tools.
- mc32 8y ago
  Some of it is to thwart legit owners of things, but also a fair amount to deter casual vandalism or even saboteurs.
pacificmint 8y ago
I suspect the tool industry has a strong incentive to keep as many of them as possible in use. I have a feeling that they push new designs to manufacturers as being 'tamper-proof', then once sufficiently adopted, push them to the sales channel to be open to open these tamper-proof screws. Repeat as needed to keep revenue up.
- 2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
  Not to mention they could also have metric and imperial systems like hex keys...
taneq 8y ago
I think it's a case of it being counterproductive to try to standardise. Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
13of40 8y ago
We're probably at 80% Phillips, 15% flat head, 5% everything else, though.
- jstanley 8y ago
  That largely depends on which country you're looking at, which industry you're looking at, and whether or not you recognise the difference between Phillips and pozidriv.
akvadrako 8y ago
It might be in the long run. Torx is the clear common-place winner, but it was patent-encumbered for a long time. I bet even Ikea will switch to them eventually.

geofree 8y ago

I'm partial to Mortorq, or at least drawn to the name... https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/ccaafc61-fd54-4904-aa97-e73e532da986 https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/ccaafc61-fd54-4904-aa97-e73e532da9...

bluedino 8y ago

I was kind of hoping this was going to be about ball screws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_screw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_screw

namibj 8y ago
Rest assured, I was hoping for a detailed comparison and explanation of the differences between them and e.g. Roller Screws. Advocating for Torx seems to be nice though.

joshu 8y ago

Do you find yourself stripping Phillips head acres frequently? That is because you are confusing Phillips and Pozidriv heads. They look similar but have a different head and different amount of engagement. I just bought myself some Wiha drivers after years of using shitty tools. I am so much happier now.

SAI_Peregrinus 8y ago
Even using the correct drivers Phillips head screws tend to strip. I have both drivers, and the Pozidriv screws seem to strip quite a lot less frequently than the Phillips. Of course neither strips as rarely as Torx, Allen, or Robinson. Hex bolts are also great.
- slededit 8y ago
  Phillips screws are design to have the driver leave the socket if it is over-torqued. Frequently people keep going after this has occurred which results in stripped heads, but if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen.
  - stephen_g 8y ago
    I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few months or years - even when they had been properly torqued with a torque wrench. We abandoned Phillips and Pozidriv completely and went to Torx for the screws (we were already using hex for bolts). Haven’t really had any issues stripping out screws since.
    - slededit 8y ago
      Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.

analog31 8y ago

I suspect that aside from tamper proof designs, most screw head development is driven from the manufacturing or assembly side. After all, most screws will never be unscrewed.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> After all, most screws will never be unscrewed. That's because they don't want you to unscrew them. There's a bit of a feedback loop here - the less user-serviceable stuff you make, the less users expect to be able to fix things themselves, so there's less need to make next things user-serviceable.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Totally. I'm a bit shocked how effective this is. For years the sight of a torx or rarer socket would stop me from even thinking about opening a device. I don't know if it was impossible to find before but today you can buy most heads easily. And when you think about it, it's just a damn contact surface for a lever.. don't stop (unless there's a real safety hazard)
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Same here. The first couple of years I encountered torx sockets, I called them "those ones they put to prevent you from repairing things". The drivers weren't impossible to find, but they also weren't commonplace. It was doubly annoying when I had devices that had regular cruciform sockets (that I could even handle with a knife if in a hurry) on the outside, but then suddenly torx sockets inside.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      oh yeah the partial disassembly is frustrating after a year of toying with devices and watching people on youtube I'm a lot more unorthodox.. anything goes as long as it's not too stupid. Yesterday I used a knife and a wrench to open a braun toothbrush.

hungerstrike 8y ago

It seems like choosing a screw drive is almost as difficult as choosing which programming library, framework or environment to use. Well, maybe not. New ones probably aren’t added quite as often.

analog31 8y ago
I work for a company that makes scientific equipment. We apply a few basic criteria, which narrow things down a lot. First, a lot of those fasteners are either really specialized or just rare or obsolete. So they can be ruled out. We look for something that will be easy for our assemblers, and for our field service technicians. They have given us feedback on what they like and dislike, including what kinds of tools are common in different parts of the world. They hate flat head screws. Hex socket screws are really easy, and it's also easy to make them look nice on an assembly. To an increasing extent, we want tools that can be used with a torque handle. For instance hex drive is better than Philips in that regard. I hate to say that it's still a work in progress, but we are heroically trying to get away from fractional drivers, especially for our field technicians who presently have to carry full sets of US and metric tools. We even have mixtures of US and metric in some products! If something is meant to be serviced by a customer (e.g., a lamp or filter that gets replaced), then we stick with Philips, which we are told is common worldwide. Or we use a captive knurled fastener if it's in a place where there's finger access. So these are just a few thoughts. Other considerations are whether you're in an industry that has already standardized on a particular tool set, such as metric allen wrenches for bikes.
- kazinator 8y ago
  > We even have mixtures of US and metric in some products! In North America, tire sizes are given in millimeter width, but imperial mounting diameter. E.g. 175-65R14: 175mm width, 65% aspect ratio (sidewall height to width or something like that), for a 14" wheel.
  - hangonhn 8y ago
    I noticed that the other day too! Dumb question but what does the rest of the world do? Do they convert inches to mm or is the inches diameter just an approximation of the more exact metric diameters?

thought_alarm 8y ago

In Canada there is a saying: Anyone who doesn't use a Robertson head is just being an asshole.

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colanderman 8y ago
Unfortunately Robertson bits are rare south of the Canadian border. I have lots of "universal" bit sets, and only one came with a set of Robertsons. (Most did come with square bits, but these are apparently not the same as Robertson, either in dimension or shape.)
- ken 8y ago
  Not rare at all in the US, in my experience. I've been doing some construction and tear-down work recently, and it's about 60% Torx, 40% Robertson.
eight_ender 8y ago
YES. Robbie for construction, Torx and Triple Square for cars. I've never had a problem with those three. Philips, Posi and Hex strip like crazy.
bdickason 8y ago
Stupid question but I've been doing alot of construction lately and using Torx (25 I think?) for everything. What's the advantage of Robertson screws? (in particular for woodworking)
- jammi 8y ago
  Robertson in Canada is just appeal to tradition at this point. They have no technical merit over Torx except maybe ease of ad-hoc construction of a driver.
- skykooler 8y ago
  Robertson are generally cheaper than Torx, for one thing.

askvictor 8y ago

I'd like to see the development of these on a timeline, including the rise of power tools. I suspect that hex, torx, and similar are only feasible due to torque-control being available on modern driving tools; prior to that the screw had to be able to disengage (cam out) to prevent it breaking.

rwbcxrz 8y ago
You might enjoy this article from about 6 months ago (as I did). It doesn't get into torx or hex drives, but covers quite a bit of history of Phillips-like drives. http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/ http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phi... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748942
dugditches 8y ago
This touches on what you're talking about. If you have the time the entire video's a gem of history screw history touching on Nails going into screw coatings, drives, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3jG5xtSQAo#t=5m05s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3jG5xtSQAo#t=5m05s

appleCored 8y ago

What, no pentalobe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentalobe_security_screw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentalobe_security_screw

grzm 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pentalobe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pentalobe

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Not sure how common in the rest of the world it is, but in New Zealand it's quite common to have screws that are a combo-bit, and accept Phillips/pozi drive and also Robertson drive. The construction industry is a bit split between Pozi and Robertson, or at least it was a few years ago. Robertson drive is an amazing drive for construction work. The screws stick nicely onto magnetised drivers, so that you can screw them into awkward locations, and they're really resistant to stripping the head. In this day and age, you can set the maximum torque on most electric screwdrivers/drills, so there's no need for a drive that intrinsically limits the torque like Phillips drives.

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linsomniac 8y ago
I first noticed this on electrical components like switches, receptacles, and breakers here in the US, a few months ago. All the screws on the devices themselves are flat, Phillips (maybe Pozi, didn't check) and square. I was remodeling my kitchen and adding some circuits, replacing all the devices, and pigtailing all the old Aluminum. Those multi-driver heads are pretty wonderful!

jgibson 8y ago

As a teenager I stripped nearly all the screws holding the crankcase of my motorcycle together before realizing that JIS was different from Phillips. Didn't help that most of the old steel screws had seized against the aluminium crankcase. After a few unsuccessful attempts with an impact driver, I ended up just welding nuts to the heads, waiting for the heat to soak, then then wrenching them off. Then threw the lot out and replaced them with something sensible - stainless internal hex head screws. I guess the original theory for JIS was that its easier to replace a screw you've mangled then it is to replace the internal thread you stripped by over torquing it.

Gracana 8y ago
I had similar experiences. Buying a set of JIS screwdrivers was one of the best decisions I ever made. They even work on screws that have been mangled by improper tools. I haven't stripped a screw head since, though I've had to use an impact driver on a few really stubborn ones.
barrkel 8y ago
Stainless will sieze in aluminium much easier than plain steel due to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion . Anti-sieze copper paste recommended if stainless is used, and it's often not a bad idea in any case.
- jgibson 8y ago
  Yeah, I definitely had some of that around, although I think I used the nickel stuff as it was cheaper. Reminds me of this quote: "The key to motorcycle maintenance is knowing when to use anti-sieze and when to use thread-locker"
meuk 8y ago
I was just about to post something about the amount of screws I strip... I might want to look into this, ha!

jimnotgym 8y ago

In the UK construction industry the pozidrive has long been the most used, followed by some special purpose designs using torx. Sometimes kitchens would come with the same crappy phillips screws as flatpack furniture. However belt feed drywall screws were always phillips. In fact most drywall screws were. It always infuriated me if you wanted to put some extras in with a drill (or take some out) that you had to go searching for a PH2. I wondered if there was some special reason for it persisting with drywall screws, especially when screwing drywall is relative new to the UK, with most being nailed up until maybe 15 years ago? Auto feed drywall guns cam out like crazy... Now I also wonder why we would always call the drywall "plasterboard" yet call the screws for it "drywall screws"!

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
> Now I also wonder why we would always call the drywall "plasterboard" yet call the screws for it "drywall screws"! Especially as the nails are known as "plasterboard nails" ;)
bluGill 8y ago
drywall is the only place where phillips still makes sense: you will never remove them anyway and the cam out feature cams out at the right place. Note that drywall screws are brittle and worthless for anything other tan drywall even though people use them for almost anything. On the rare case you need to remove drywall you break it out, and then break the screws off.

jammi 8y ago

The only real reason for Phillips screw heads were the old electromechanical industry robots that would rely on auto-centering and spring tension to pop the driver out of the screw against a switch at the set torque. Modern (since 1980s or so) industry robots are computer-driven and torque-sensing. Phillips (and Pozidriv) needs to die in favor of modern superior screw drive designs like Torx.

collyw 8y ago
Out of interest what is better about Torx? With "normal" screws you can usually improvise something when you are without tools.
- gambiting 8y ago
  You can usually "improvise" with a torx using a flat head screwdriver - it it locks in place it will turn.
- blhack 8y ago
  They don't strip, or at least it would take a tremendous amount of torque to strip them. My experience has been that the driver strips before the head does.
  - jammi 8y ago
    Usually the screw snaps in two at over-torquing before either the head or tool strips.
    - hvidgaard 8y ago
      I've had that happen a few times. It's super annoying, but that what you get when not paying for the quality screws.
      - jammi 8y ago
        Happens with the better ones as well, it's just a matter of setting the torque limiter of your screwdriver/coordless drill to match the job. Sometimes takes a few mistakes, but it's safer to start with a low setting and adjust up until you have the right torque for the screw.

blhack 8y ago

As far as I'm concerned, torx is the only reasonable screw anymore. It seems like most construction screws (at least in the US) have moved to this. Just to make the point: I've stripped out more torx drivers than I have torx heads. I can say I truly don't understand how phillips ever even took hold over flatheads. Cheap phillips head screws seem designed to strip out. Somebody elsewhere in this thread made the point that they are self-centering, and make industrial manufacturing easier. I guess that makes sense.

micheljansen 8y ago
As someone who has just remodelled an old house with loads of flatheads: you've got to be kidding me. I hate those things with a passion. Flathead screws only restrict the movement of the screwdriver in one dimension and allow it to move in the other one. This leads to the screwdriver to keep sliding out when you put force on under even the slightest angle. Phillips screws improve on this design by restricting movement in two dimensions and force the screwdriver to always be in the center, but they slip easily and wear quickly. Torx are superior because they fit much more "snugly", though at the (minor) cost of being less forgiving of using the wrong size of screwdriver.
- blhack 8y ago
  Yeah that's fair. I guess I was thinking of flatheads as small machine screws and things like that, where only a few rotations are actually necessary.
- kbrosnan 8y ago
  An advantage of flathead is that it is easy to unfoul the screw head. A minute with a utility knife or a flathead screwdriver will clear the channel of dirt or paint. I would not want to deal with a torx that has several layers of paint dried into it.
  - micheljansen 8y ago
    I have fortunately not had to experience that. I guess a special screw extractor tool might be the only option then.

SwellJoe 8y ago

I had to buy a set of tripoint drivers to open up and work on Gameboys. That was annoying (I've never seen them anywhere else). For some reason my RV (an old 1984 Avion) uses Robertson screws nearly everywhere, which is actually nice. The big chunky square holds up to rust and corrosion better than Phillips. Kinda wish more things used Robertson.

B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago

Once I found that a simple, cheap clothes iron was defended against would-be worn wire fixers (me) by a flat screw slot with a protruding center pin. Fortunately I had a small sharp file to cut a notch in a cheap flat-bladed screwdriver, and all was well. The device doesn't seem to be listed here.

DEFCON28 8y ago

I like the skrillex

burfog 8y ago

I like the connectors that were used on the Capsela toys. The two mating parts were identical, each with three prongs. It looks like a radiation symbol that is missing the center dot. An interesting property is that there would be no need to carefully match the diameter.

andrewaylett 8y ago

I find it interesting that so many people here see the choice as being between Phillips and Torx -- all the time I was growing up (in the UK), Torx bits were incredibly difficult to get hold of while Pozidriv became more and more common, to the point where I don't think I've any loose non-Pozidriv screws in the house, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone selling Torx screws.

oneeyedpigeon 8y ago

This is like the first-panel setup for an xkcd strip.

walrus01 8y ago

If you work with wood/carpentry construction in Canada, a higher percentage of things are square drive (Robertson). They were less common until recently in the USA due to patent licensing issues.

bhaavan 8y ago

Will this data make it to a Sheldon dialog in The Big Bang Theory?

ktosobcy 8y ago

it misses sonic screwdriver (sorry, couldn't help myself)

nfriedly 8y ago

When my wife and I bought our house, I thought the previous owner had stripped the hell out of some Phillips screws... then I learned what Robertson (square) screws were. After getting the proper bit though, I’ve started to really appreciate them. I don’t think I’ve ever stripped a single one.

mikepurvis 8y ago
Robertson is excellent but they seem to be a uniquely Canadian phenomenon. My company ships robots to the US in big crates, and we've had to switch to building them with Philips screws instead because of issues with local availability.
- nfriedly 8y ago
  I'm in Ohio, but I guess that's close to Canada. The bit was pretty easy to find in the first hardware store I tried.
  - fhood 8y ago
    Super common where I live in the US as well. Lots of wood screws use them, but they show up in pretty much every fastener application.
- sophacles 8y ago
  Maybe it's a regional thing? Here in the midwest US the hardware stores carry them and Phillips, in about 50:50 proportion -- At least for construction screws (decking screws for example) this is true. Most of the contractors I know locally prefer them as well.
  - linsomniac 8y ago
    They are around here, but I'd say star point (not sure if they are double square or Torx), seem to be as prevalent at Home Depot as Robertson. I'm in Colorado, so on the cusp of the West.
  - 8y ago

HaifaHacker 8y ago

My favorite is the skrillex head.

droidist2 8y ago

It's interesting that a lot of these variants were/are being created as security or tamper-proof mechanisms, a real world type of "security through obscurity" (although a different type of obscurity than is usually meant by that phrase). Then it becomes not obscure enough and they make a new type of screw.

Deestan 8y ago
Security through inconvenience?
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I_complete_me 8y ago

There's a lovely little book called "One Good Turn" by Witold Rybczynski subtitled 'A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw' A pure delight for those interested in such things like me.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

It's all about force and material properties. The drive type doesn't matter as long as it can handle the force it will see. If the tool and the fastener fit well the limitation is usually whatever has the smallest minor diameter.

Lionsion 8y ago

Important FYI for any Americans who don't know: Ikea screws are not Phillips, they're actually Pozidriv, which is different enough to matter. Do not use a Phillips screwdriver to assemble Ikea furnature, as that combination will easily cam out and ruin the (typically soft metal) screw. It's easiest to buy the correct Pozidriv screwdriver bits from Ikea, but they're also available online. My understanding is that Pozidriv is as popular in Europe as Phillips is in America. They look so similar that you probably won't know the difference unless you're told about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pozidriv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Pozidriv: > Pozidriv and Phillips are not interchangeable. While Pozidriv screwdrivers fit Phillips screws, they may slip or tear out the Phillips screw head. Conversely, while Phillips screwdrivers will loosely fit and turn Pozidriv screws, they will cam out if enough torque is applied, potentially damaging the screw head or screwdriver.

mattmillr 8y ago
Ikea sells a $8 tool set that includes three sizes of Pozidriv bits - and other bits that perfectly fit their various connectors. It's well worth the cost if you're planning to assemble anything you got from IKEA and not lose your mind.
- pasbesoin 8y ago
  They also have, or had, a circa $25 corded drill kit for sale (going by memory of briefly seeing, a year or two ago). If someone doesn't have a drill and is contemplating purchasing and constructing a substantial piece of IKEA furniture, such as my parent's TV stand -- lots of bits to screw together. Under those circumstances, I suggest maybe they want to buy one of the drill kits. I expect you can get a better corded drill elsewhere, and buy the relevant bits, for not much more. But, KISS, with regard to the amount of shopping to be done. P.S. Well, what do you know. US $20, now, and cordless. https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00196101/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00196101/
  - mindslight 8y ago

devy 8y ago

I like Steve Ramsey's Woodworking Basics 101 on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GiYrFyNVUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GiYrFyNVUU

joncrane 8y ago

Interesting historical point: Apple started using the pentalobe fasteners in their iPhones in order to make it more difficult for end users to service their phones. https://www.ifixit.com/blog/2011/01/20/apples-diabolical-plan-to-screw-your-iphone/ https://www.ifixit.com/blog/2011/01/20/apples-diabolical-pla...

ddacunha 8y ago
Is this the reason they have switched to Pentalobe screw. I have googled for material but couldn't find anything. Pentalobe screws are not that hard to find and considering the popularity of Apple devices, they will get easier to find. When I compare them to Torx screws I suppose the points rounder shape makes the screwdriver more resistant, which may be an advantage when assembly millions. I am no expert, and I would appreciate if someone has an informed opinion.
- joncrane 8y ago
  Well, let's try the counterargument approach. Given what we know about fasteners (you need look no further than this thread), why else would Apple choose Pentalobe, of all the options?

lamename 8y ago

# of arguments about screw drives = # screw drives ! Great fun

mauvehaus 8y ago

If you keep stripping Phillips head screws, and they aren't Pozidriv (or JIS)[0], it could be that you should buy better screwdrivers. Well made screw drivers engage the head much more postively than poorly made ones. Unfortunately, virtually everything available in the muggle tool aisle is poorly made. This includes Kobalt, Husky, and Craftsman. I've owned screwdrivers made by all 3, and none of them can hold a candle to a truly good screwdriver. If you want good screw drivers, Klein makes excellent ones. Klein's target market is electricians, and you can sometimes find them in the electrical aisle in muggle stores. Alternately, an electrical supply house (i.e. a wizard store) will probably stock them (or something equally good). Expect to pay $10 USD per screwdriver. It's worth it. The other option I can personally vouch for is the Snap-On. Their market is principally mechanics. I haven't bought any, only used a friends, so I can't comment on how to buy them (online or find a truck, I'd imagine), or what to expect to pay. TL;DR: Shop where the pros shop if you want good tools. For most pros, the most expensive part of a job is their time, so it's worth not having tools that take up a lot of it because they aren't good. Quick and mostly accurate test for is a store a wizard store or a muggle store: Are they open on weekends? If so, odds are it's a muggle store. [0] JIS is also superficially similar to Pozidriv and Phillips, and also mutually incompatible. Honda apparently uses them. I found out when I mentioned I destroyed a P2 impact bit on a stuck screw (from America's leading purveyor of single-use tools, admittedly) on a Honda form. I was educated. ETA: Not a pro in the domain of electricity or mechanics, but as a woodworker, it's important to have good screwdrivers to avoid stripping brass screws, which are much softer than steel.

floatboth 8y ago

In Russia, no one knows what "philips" and "pozidriv" are, it's all just "cross" lol