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This one is so fascinating, given that the Milgram Experiment(s) (it was actually a full battery of tests under many different circumstances with a control grou

This one is so fascinating, given that the Milgram Experiment(s) (it was actually a full battery of tests under many different circumstances with a control group) showed categorically that people do not, in fact, follow through with torture just because they were ordered to. However, in one of the tests, the subjects persisted. This instance, for obvious reasons, gets the lion's share of attention, and the actual data generated from the study is rendered inconsequential. A thousand people can do the right thing with no monetary or status gain, but one person acts in 'disgusting' self interest, and 40 years of exposés will be written about the easy fallibility of the average Joe. All this to say, most people feel guilt in one of two ways: in the commission of an act (or the prior contemplation there of) or upon critical review of the act. Not a profound observation, granted, but which crowd is present during The Review will have a heavy influence on the introspection that occurs. Food for thought.

firic 8y ago
Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia makes it seem like most of the people followed through with the experiment.
- nyolfen 8y ago
  op may be referring to this: >“The notion that we somehow automatically obey authority, that we are somehow programmed, doesn’t account for the variability [in rates of obedience] across conditions,” he said; in some iterations of Milgram’s study, the rate of compliance was close to 100 percent, while in others it was closer to zero. “We need an account that can explain the variability—when we obey, when we don’t.” https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/rethinking-one-of-psychologys-most-infamous-experiments/384913/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/rethinkin... the experiment has recently come under more critical attention (along with much of social psychology)
- classicsnoot 8y ago
  Originally, i heard about it here[1]. You can read about the variability here[2]. But i would recommend searching for the raw data of the experiment, which i personally have not done. I would also recommend you read [3]. It is equally fascinating and horrifying. What is more, it is eerily prescient about where society has developed since Merloo wrote his book. To summarize (criminally), people do bad shit when they are forcefully conditioned to do so, and even then they fight back against this conditioning. You can hear it for yourself in the original recordings of the Milgram experiments; the actors tasked with being the "scientists" had to prod the subjects into doing the dirty. Make no mistake, i am a conservative that is deeply committed to the concept of the "fallen nature of man," rather, people are fundamentally flawed. We need very little assistance in acting selfishly. But history, science, and life is painfully clear: if you want to get people to hurt others without a selfishly motivated decision to do so, you have to work very hard. [1]https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/180092-the-bad-show/ https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/180092-the-bad-show/ (~14:00) [2]https://www.npr.org/2013/08/28/209559002/taking-a-closer-look-at-milgrams-shocking-obedience-study https://www.npr.org/2013/08/28/209559002/taking-a-closer-loo... [3]https://www.amazon.com/Rape-Mind-Psychology-Menticide-Brainwashing/dp/1614277877 https://www.amazon.com/Rape-Mind-Psychology-Menticide-Brainw...
LifeLiverTransp 8y ago
The original experiment was WW2 - to be precise,normal Joes drafted into positions of power in conquered german territorys. There are no stories on large scale humanity rights violation beeing averted by sudden conciousness victiorious . The experiments in that post-war context where mainly to understand the mechanism. And yes, average joe and jane, failed hard when it came to preserve basic humanity.
- classicsnoot 8y ago
  I'm sorry if this comes off as recklessly condescending, but the history of humans, good and bad, stretches far past what modern education has decided is the only relevant data point in the "good vs. evil" discussion, that being the holocaust. You can subtract the entirety of World War Two out of the equation, and you will still be inundated with examples on both sides of the spectrum. The idea that the atrocities of WWII were unique or different is a travesty of intellect. What makes WWII notable is merely scale, and the ramifications of this fact are damning to the legions of folks who like to pretend that religion is the greatest source of human evil. WWII is the biggest and best example that science and technology are demonstrably more destructive when applied to the problem of "opposition erasure."

firic 8y ago

Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia makes it seem like most of the people followed through with the experiment.

nyolfen 8y ago
op may be referring to this: >“The notion that we somehow automatically obey authority, that we are somehow programmed, doesn’t account for the variability [in rates of obedience] across conditions,” he said; in some iterations of Milgram’s study, the rate of compliance was close to 100 percent, while in others it was closer to zero. “We need an account that can explain the variability—when we obey, when we don’t.” https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/rethinking-one-of-psychologys-most-infamous-experiments/384913/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/rethinkin... the experiment has recently come under more critical attention (along with much of social psychology)
classicsnoot 8y ago
Originally, i heard about it here[1]. You can read about the variability here[2]. But i would recommend searching for the raw data of the experiment, which i personally have not done. I would also recommend you read [3]. It is equally fascinating and horrifying. What is more, it is eerily prescient about where society has developed since Merloo wrote his book. To summarize (criminally), people do bad shit when they are forcefully conditioned to do so, and even then they fight back against this conditioning. You can hear it for yourself in the original recordings of the Milgram experiments; the actors tasked with being the "scientists" had to prod the subjects into doing the dirty. Make no mistake, i am a conservative that is deeply committed to the concept of the "fallen nature of man," rather, people are fundamentally flawed. We need very little assistance in acting selfishly. But history, science, and life is painfully clear: if you want to get people to hurt others without a selfishly motivated decision to do so, you have to work very hard. [1]https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/180092-the-bad-show/ https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/180092-the-bad-show/ (~14:00) [2]https://www.npr.org/2013/08/28/209559002/taking-a-closer-look-at-milgrams-shocking-obedience-study https://www.npr.org/2013/08/28/209559002/taking-a-closer-loo... [3]https://www.amazon.com/Rape-Mind-Psychology-Menticide-Brainwashing/dp/1614277877 https://www.amazon.com/Rape-Mind-Psychology-Menticide-Brainw...

LifeLiverTransp 8y ago

The original experiment was WW2 - to be precise,normal Joes drafted into positions of power in conquered german territorys. There are no stories on large scale humanity rights violation beeing averted by sudden conciousness victiorious . The experiments in that post-war context where mainly to understand the mechanism. And yes, average joe and jane, failed hard when it came to preserve basic humanity.

classicsnoot 8y ago
I'm sorry if this comes off as recklessly condescending, but the history of humans, good and bad, stretches far past what modern education has decided is the only relevant data point in the "good vs. evil" discussion, that being the holocaust. You can subtract the entirety of World War Two out of the equation, and you will still be inundated with examples on both sides of the spectrum. The idea that the atrocities of WWII were unique or different is a travesty of intellect. What makes WWII notable is merely scale, and the ramifications of this fact are damning to the legions of folks who like to pretend that religion is the greatest source of human evil. WWII is the biggest and best example that science and technology are demonstrably more destructive when applied to the problem of "opposition erasure."