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I dunno, GM and Ford build a fuck-ton more cars and have better build quality (which is shitty by int'l standards). Seems like Teslas's problem is bigger.

Retric 8y ago
They have been building basically the same cars for far longer so that does not say much. Tesla is attacking too many different problems at the same time IMO. Just building batteries at scale and low cost is on it's own a huge undertaking. Now add cars, self driving systems, charging network, home battery and solar etc. It's over valued as a pure car company, but the other lines could also be huge companies on their own.
mikeash 8y ago
Having owned both a GM and a Tesla, I'm amused by the idea that GM's build quality is better. I actually liked my GM a lot, but quality was lacking to say the least.
- ConcernedCoder 8y ago
  year make and model? I only ask, because honestly, I bought ( ordered and customized online really ) a new 2015 GMC Canyon and I love this truck like I've never loved another vehicle in my lifetime... and literally NOTHING has gone wrong with it, not even a loose screw... or burnt-out light bulb...
  - wtallis 8y ago
    For a 3-4 year old car, having nothing break yet should be regarded as about par, not some outstanding accomplishment. These things should be lasting at least a decade with reasonable maintenance, and every component that can't last a decade should be on the maintenance schedule for preemptive replacement.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    2005 Malibu. The side mirrors stripped their gears, the exhaust got a leak and needed complete replacement, the brake rotors got scored in a bizarre way that the shop couldn't understand, the tie rod ends went bad a couple of times, the instrument cluster stopped working spontaneously, then on my next drive started working equally spontaneously, the ABS system would occasionally go on strike for no apparent reason, from time to time it would somehow start badly and end up in a weird low idle state where it ran extremely rough, but the good ol' "turn it off and on again" would usually resolve it.... My Tesla has not been problem-free either, but it hasn't been that bad.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  Having driven Fords, GMs and a Tesla, I'd say GM isn't international standard either, but Ford is definitely.
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    In terms of driving experience, most Ford cars I've driven (Contour, Focus, and Taurus, probably all from early 2000s; they are probably better now) handle like boats; turning radius comparable to an oil tanker, unresponsive brakes and gas, etc. So there are tradeoffs among all makes and models within those makes.
    - doikor 8y ago
      All the things you mentioned are design decisions not build quality related.
      - fsloth 8y ago
        Weeelll... given that a modern car is a complex dynamic system I would presume it's not to trivial to state where exactly design constraints concerning build quality end and dynamics and handling start. For the end user they both affect the 'feel' of the product - how it behaves on the detail level when in use. "I have a door I have a hard time closing" and "the dynamics feel a bit clumsy" deal with totally different things on the engineering level, but end users (generally) are not buying engineering but holistic products. Namely, concerning this comment: Are there compromises made on the design of the handling to facilitate the build quality? And if there are, then those are not two different things, but systems which interact - hence, it's relevant to offer commentary on one while discussing the other.
        taneq 8y ago
        > it's not to trivial to state where exactly design constraints concerning build quality end and dynamics and handling start Maybe I'm being overly simplistic here but I'd say if the finished product doesn't match the design then it's a build quality issue, whereas if it does match the design and it's still crap then that's a design issue. Arguably if they end product doesn't match the design because the design isn't feasible to manufacture then that would also be a design issue.
- historylurker 8y ago
  Are you comparing a $100k Tesla to a $100k GM car?
nraynaud 8y ago
Yes, but startups are shitty and wavy by nature, it stabilizes with time. While culling the contractors, they might lose sight of something important and get into the next crisis. I don’t think there is any other way around. Sometimes it’s even external factors like wars and financial crises like the dinosaurs of the automobile industry had.
- Jasper_ 8y ago
  Tesla is a public company founded in 2003, not a startup. It's a year older than Facebook.
  - nkristoffersen 8y ago
    While it definitely depends once your definition of startup... I bet most people in the automotive industry consider it a “startup”. Especially considering the age of the competition, Tesla is a brand new startup company with hyper growth in its plans.

Retric 8y ago

They have been building basically the same cars for far longer so that does not say much. Tesla is attacking too many different problems at the same time IMO. Just building batteries at scale and low cost is on it's own a huge undertaking. Now add cars, self driving systems, charging network, home battery and solar etc. It's over valued as a pure car company, but the other lines could also be huge companies on their own.

mikeash 8y ago

Having owned both a GM and a Tesla, I'm amused by the idea that GM's build quality is better. I actually liked my GM a lot, but quality was lacking to say the least.

ConcernedCoder 8y ago
year make and model? I only ask, because honestly, I bought ( ordered and customized online really ) a new 2015 GMC Canyon and I love this truck like I've never loved another vehicle in my lifetime... and literally NOTHING has gone wrong with it, not even a loose screw... or burnt-out light bulb...
- wtallis 8y ago
  For a 3-4 year old car, having nothing break yet should be regarded as about par, not some outstanding accomplishment. These things should be lasting at least a decade with reasonable maintenance, and every component that can't last a decade should be on the maintenance schedule for preemptive replacement.
- mikeash 8y ago
  2005 Malibu. The side mirrors stripped their gears, the exhaust got a leak and needed complete replacement, the brake rotors got scored in a bizarre way that the shop couldn't understand, the tie rod ends went bad a couple of times, the instrument cluster stopped working spontaneously, then on my next drive started working equally spontaneously, the ABS system would occasionally go on strike for no apparent reason, from time to time it would somehow start badly and end up in a weird low idle state where it ran extremely rough, but the good ol' "turn it off and on again" would usually resolve it.... My Tesla has not been problem-free either, but it hasn't been that bad.
woodpanel 8y ago
Having driven Fords, GMs and a Tesla, I'd say GM isn't international standard either, but Ford is definitely.
- nitrogen 8y ago
  In terms of driving experience, most Ford cars I've driven (Contour, Focus, and Taurus, probably all from early 2000s; they are probably better now) handle like boats; turning radius comparable to an oil tanker, unresponsive brakes and gas, etc. So there are tradeoffs among all makes and models within those makes.
  - doikor 8y ago
    All the things you mentioned are design decisions not build quality related.
    - fsloth 8y ago
      Weeelll... given that a modern car is a complex dynamic system I would presume it's not to trivial to state where exactly design constraints concerning build quality end and dynamics and handling start. For the end user they both affect the 'feel' of the product - how it behaves on the detail level when in use. "I have a door I have a hard time closing" and "the dynamics feel a bit clumsy" deal with totally different things on the engineering level, but end users (generally) are not buying engineering but holistic products. Namely, concerning this comment: Are there compromises made on the design of the handling to facilitate the build quality? And if there are, then those are not two different things, but systems which interact - hence, it's relevant to offer commentary on one while discussing the other.
      - taneq 8y ago
        > it's not to trivial to state where exactly design constraints concerning build quality end and dynamics and handling start Maybe I'm being overly simplistic here but I'd say if the finished product doesn't match the design then it's a build quality issue, whereas if it does match the design and it's still crap then that's a design issue. Arguably if they end product doesn't match the design because the design isn't feasible to manufacture then that would also be a design issue.
historylurker 8y ago
Are you comparing a $100k Tesla to a $100k GM car?

nraynaud 8y ago

Yes, but startups are shitty and wavy by nature, it stabilizes with time. While culling the contractors, they might lose sight of something important and get into the next crisis. I don’t think there is any other way around. Sometimes it’s even external factors like wars and financial crises like the dinosaurs of the automobile industry had.

Jasper_ 8y ago
Tesla is a public company founded in 2003, not a startup. It's a year older than Facebook.
- nkristoffersen 8y ago
  While it definitely depends once your definition of startup... I bet most people in the automotive industry consider it a “startup”. Especially considering the age of the competition, Tesla is a brand new startup company with hyper growth in its plans.