4 ms·

I forgot that sarcasm isn't welcomed here, even when someone makes baseless and nonsensical claims.

by jimktrains2 8y ago

dang 8y ago
It isn't sarcasm that's unwelcome here, but snark and personal attacks.
- jimktrains2 8y ago
  Snark is just sarcasm you don't like. I never attacked them. I simply found how they described cron extremely funny given that it's entirely contradictory to mine and pretty much everyone I've discussed sys admining with. The man page, with system specific extension, is barely 1500 words long. That's neither impentrable nor complex. I've just tired of dealing with people who have no way to describe things but with hyperbole, making an actual discussion difficult, if possible at all, because the facts of the matter can never be clearly stated. "I don't like cron because I can never keep the columns straight (and we can't keep comments in our crontab for w/e reason), the division symbol is used in a weird way, and I want _my_ services/code simple and my _system_ to handle complexity" is a much more honest way to complain about cron. Saying it's impenetrable is a load of BS and entirely unhelpful to the discussion. So yes, I laughed at their response. No, it was not a personal attack. Finding someone's argument terrible and divorced from reality, or otherwise just hyperbole over known issues is not a personal attack. I'm making no judgement on them as a person. I'm not basing my response on anything except what they've said and constraint my response to be entirely within the scope of the argument, not extending it to them as a person. Now, we can discuss if my response is helpful and furthers the discussion. Probably not. (Although,I did try to follow up with one that was.) Was it uncivil or a personal attack? Absolutely not.
  - otterley 8y ago
    First, arguing with a moderator is unlikely to get you the outcome you're looking for. Second, you're continuing even still with unwelcome, potentially hurtful, and overly-judgmental characterizations of another member's opinion and experience as a "load of BS," following your earlier characterization of someone's comment as "laughable." You may disagree with another's opinion, but there are less divisive ways to express it than how you've done it so far. The majority of HN participants debate issues -- even ones that are contentious or may have "obvious" answers -- with an inclusive tone that conveys respect. We'd do well to look to them for inspiration.
    - jimktrains2 8y ago
      I actually don't know who the moderators are here, nor am I looking for any specific outcome. Even if I knew all the mods, I would treat them as any other member. Not doing so would imply I treat other members poorly or that the mods have a god complex, neither of which I believe to be true. Moreover, if they deem me unfit to be a member of this community, I doubt grovelling and theatre would do any good. > Second, you're continuing even still with unwelcome, potentially hurtful, and overly-judgmental characterizations of another member's opinion None of which is a personal attack. It's quite literally impossible to not be hurtful to everyone all the time. It's not worth my effort to go out of my way to not be direct (which isn't rude). It's more than possible to find an argument BS or laughable without that being a commentary on the presenter of said argument. Plenty of not-stupid people make stupid and shitty arguments -- myself included. I expect my BS, poor arguments, and bad reasoning to be called out and corrected without needing to beat around the bush or otherwise sugar coat it. I'm an adult, I can accept when I'm wrong when presented with a convining argument. I expect others to find some of my opinions dumb, or otherwise incompatible with their world view. That isn't the other person being uncivil, disrespectful, or otherwise antagonistic or launching ad hominems. They shouldn't feel ashamed for voicing that either, many times over if I'm presenting my opinion as some universal truth. > The majority of HN participants debate issues -- even ones that are contentious or may have "obvious" answers -- with an inclusive tone that conveys respect. We'd do well to look to them for inspiration. What have I done that's disrespectful or otherwise not inclusive. It's very saddening that simply finding someone's opinion, especially one that's no where near deep-seated or otherwise a defining characteristic, so over the top with exaggeration that it's funny is now considered not inclusive or disrespectful. People can be respected without needing to baby them and protect their egos. However, arguments are not the people that make them. Arguments deserve no respect simply for existing. The fast bad, false, or ineffective ones die, the better. If we can't sit and discuss arguments and options without everyone taking it personally, we will never be able to get far as a society.
      - dang 8y ago
        You make some fine points, but the dominant consideration here is a simple practical one: we know from many years of experience what an internet forum turns into when people respond to others with "Give me a few minutes to recover from laughing, please. Impenetrable. Lololololol." and similar. It leads to flamewars, insults, and tire fires. The smart people get tired of it and leave. The rest keep flaming each other till nothing but scorched earth is left. So, while I personally agree with some of what you said, I can't let you post like that, for the same reason that if I were a park ranger I wouldn't let you start dangerous fires. If you want to keep commenting here, please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and make a point of using the site as intended.

I forgot that sarcasm isn't welcomed here, even when someone makes baseless and nonsensical claims.

dang 8y ago

It isn't sarcasm that's unwelcome here, but snark and personal attacks.

jimktrains2 8y ago
Snark is just sarcasm you don't like. I never attacked them. I simply found how they described cron extremely funny given that it's entirely contradictory to mine and pretty much everyone I've discussed sys admining with. The man page, with system specific extension, is barely 1500 words long. That's neither impentrable nor complex. I've just tired of dealing with people who have no way to describe things but with hyperbole, making an actual discussion difficult, if possible at all, because the facts of the matter can never be clearly stated. "I don't like cron because I can never keep the columns straight (and we can't keep comments in our crontab for w/e reason), the division symbol is used in a weird way, and I want _my_ services/code simple and my _system_ to handle complexity" is a much more honest way to complain about cron. Saying it's impenetrable is a load of BS and entirely unhelpful to the discussion. So yes, I laughed at their response. No, it was not a personal attack. Finding someone's argument terrible and divorced from reality, or otherwise just hyperbole over known issues is not a personal attack. I'm making no judgement on them as a person. I'm not basing my response on anything except what they've said and constraint my response to be entirely within the scope of the argument, not extending it to them as a person. Now, we can discuss if my response is helpful and furthers the discussion. Probably not. (Although,I did try to follow up with one that was.) Was it uncivil or a personal attack? Absolutely not.
- otterley 8y ago
  First, arguing with a moderator is unlikely to get you the outcome you're looking for. Second, you're continuing even still with unwelcome, potentially hurtful, and overly-judgmental characterizations of another member's opinion and experience as a "load of BS," following your earlier characterization of someone's comment as "laughable." You may disagree with another's opinion, but there are less divisive ways to express it than how you've done it so far. The majority of HN participants debate issues -- even ones that are contentious or may have "obvious" answers -- with an inclusive tone that conveys respect. We'd do well to look to them for inspiration.
  - jimktrains2 8y ago
    I actually don't know who the moderators are here, nor am I looking for any specific outcome. Even if I knew all the mods, I would treat them as any other member. Not doing so would imply I treat other members poorly or that the mods have a god complex, neither of which I believe to be true. Moreover, if they deem me unfit to be a member of this community, I doubt grovelling and theatre would do any good. > Second, you're continuing even still with unwelcome, potentially hurtful, and overly-judgmental characterizations of another member's opinion None of which is a personal attack. It's quite literally impossible to not be hurtful to everyone all the time. It's not worth my effort to go out of my way to not be direct (which isn't rude). It's more than possible to find an argument BS or laughable without that being a commentary on the presenter of said argument. Plenty of not-stupid people make stupid and shitty arguments -- myself included. I expect my BS, poor arguments, and bad reasoning to be called out and corrected without needing to beat around the bush or otherwise sugar coat it. I'm an adult, I can accept when I'm wrong when presented with a convining argument. I expect others to find some of my opinions dumb, or otherwise incompatible with their world view. That isn't the other person being uncivil, disrespectful, or otherwise antagonistic or launching ad hominems. They shouldn't feel ashamed for voicing that either, many times over if I'm presenting my opinion as some universal truth. > The majority of HN participants debate issues -- even ones that are contentious or may have "obvious" answers -- with an inclusive tone that conveys respect. We'd do well to look to them for inspiration. What have I done that's disrespectful or otherwise not inclusive. It's very saddening that simply finding someone's opinion, especially one that's no where near deep-seated or otherwise a defining characteristic, so over the top with exaggeration that it's funny is now considered not inclusive or disrespectful. People can be respected without needing to baby them and protect their egos. However, arguments are not the people that make them. Arguments deserve no respect simply for existing. The fast bad, false, or ineffective ones die, the better. If we can't sit and discuss arguments and options without everyone taking it personally, we will never be able to get far as a society.
    - dang 8y ago
      You make some fine points, but the dominant consideration here is a simple practical one: we know from many years of experience what an internet forum turns into when people respond to others with "Give me a few minutes to recover from laughing, please. Impenetrable. Lololololol." and similar. It leads to flamewars, insults, and tire fires. The smart people get tired of it and leave. The rest keep flaming each other till nothing but scorched earth is left. So, while I personally agree with some of what you said, I can't let you post like that, for the same reason that if I were a park ranger I wouldn't let you start dangerous fires. If you want to keep commenting here, please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and make a point of using the site as intended.