5 ms·

People need to understand that the alternative to ads is paying hundreds of dollars a month in subscription fees and then still not having access to all the ser

People need to understand that the alternative to ads is paying hundreds of dollars a month in subscription fees and then still not having access to all the services you would have had access to in an ad economy world. People in Europe will soon get this wakeup call. Services that were only marginally profitable are already shutting down because of GDPR. I'm confident that the EU government and its citizens have little idea of the consequences that will result from their privacy legislation.

rahoulb 8y ago
Maybe if the service is only marginally profitable without acting unethically it should shut down.
- lajhsdfkl 8y ago
  Showing ads is unethical now? >Maybe if the service is only marginally profitable without acting unethically it should shut down. Also I love this neo puritan thinking. I'm sure all the users of these services agree with your ideology and you forcing it down their throats is for their own good correct?
  - Sylos 8y ago
    No, tracking is unethical, which most ads rely on. And yes, it is for their own good to not have thousands of databases with their data littered across the internet. I know, this is not a very American way of thinking, but no one can be an expert at everything. Most people are not experts at computers and even less can grasp the outreach and effects of their data being everywhere. These people need help just as much as the average guy needs assistance with doctors. If they knew enough to tell when a doctor is bullshitting them, they could probably become a doctor, too.
    - lajhsdfkl 8y ago
      >And yes, it is for their own good to not have thousands of databases with their data littered across the internet. "With their data". Aka whether or not they liked a group pertaining to motorcycles or whether they searched for fishing rods on google. Yeah, we definitely need to shut off what is the most consumer friendly way of monetizing services in history so that a database of inane shit that is only relevant to marketers isn't tracked.
      - Sylos 8y ago
        Well, it's not only relevant to marketers. Your two most innocent examples are not the only type of information that's going to slip in there. And even with those two examples, you just have to be creative to find ways for them to damage you: You'll probably have to pay more for your health insurance, if they find out that you enjoy motorcycles. And if your next potential employer is vegetarian, they might pass on you for fishing, a.k.a. killing things as a hobby. Someone wanting to rob/extort/kidnap/murder you, might look for you at lonely lakes in the region. And these are the most generic examples of this supposedly useless information being used against a person. Someone who happens to have an actual use, is going to be even more creative, since they'll find themselves in some particular situation where it's useful. And again, there's going to be more information. They can sift through an entire list to find the ones that are useful and they can combine multiple pieces of information, too.
  - ozim 8y ago
    How showing ads is against GDPR? You still can show ads, you just need consent for tracking users. If they are going out of business because of GDPR they were not just showing ads.
    - lajhsdfkl 8y ago
      There are no ads without tracking.
      - saratogacx 8y ago
        Ads existed before tracking. DDG uses ads based on the page content, not what is known about the user. This is actually how ads were before everyone went tracking-happy. It is a model I prefer simply because it is more inline with the content I'm viewing. I'm more willing to let those ads get whitelisted because they're more likely to be related to the content I'm looking at and less about "what do we think saratogacx really wants today based on all of the data across the web."
      - ozim 8y ago
        You don't have CTR in newspapers and people still buy adverts in those.
      - AlexandrB 8y ago
        > There are no ads without tracking. I can definitively say you're wrong because I saw a billboard on my way to work today. Also, in the early internet days tracking was referred to as spyware and security software would uninstall it from your machine.
  - rahoulb 8y ago
    GDPR basically says “get consent for what you do with peoples data”. If you can’t do that I would say your business model is it very ethical. Edit: or have “legitimate interest” - in either case it’s a very low bar for ethical standards so GDPR shouldn’t be an issue
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Honestly, I don't think it would be a great loss to forgo most of the advertising funded content.
- lajhsdfkl 8y ago
  >Honestly, I don't think it would be a great loss to forgo most of the advertising funded content. Since you clearly haven't put much thought into this comment let's just start listing things that are funded by ads - News - content creators on youtube - music - twitch - search - blogs - websites with tutorials - a thousand different things which I have missed and then facebook, snapchat, instagram, and twitter which of course you are too good for
  - paulific 8y ago
    Well there are genuinely people out there who don't use the content. Our attitudes to media and who should be watching what haven't changed much from the broadcast era. "I'm not one Facebook" is the new "I don't watch TV.
    - lajhsdfkl 8y ago
      I'm sure there are but that has nothing to do with my point. Anyway, I personally never use facebook because it is not something I find interesting. Do I feel pride in that fact? No I don't because I have an equally harmful relationship with reddit and hackernews. I always have to laugh when I see people state as a point of pride how they have deleted their facebook accounts on different social networks. If anything I think reddit and hackernews could be worse because I'm ingesting unfiltered opinions from random strangers.
  - wott 8y ago
    - News Best TV and radio channels across the globe are government channels, funded by tax. - content creators on youtube & twitch 99,99% dispensable trash. - music Music funded by ads??? - search The only point that holds in your list. Could perfectly be funded by ISPs as part of our Internet subscription. - blogs & websites with tutorials No need for funding. Cost to setup is zero (provided by ISP) or close to zero (basic hosting or domain name registering).
banishwashtub 8y ago
Thing is, ads don't have to track users as individuals or at all. TV ads and print media ads are based on the content, why can't web based ads also be based on content? No more GDPR issues, we still get free content. Perhaps we can still do a pay-to-remove-ads option.

rahoulb 8y ago

Maybe if the service is only marginally profitable without acting unethically it should shut down.

lajhsdfkl 8y ago
Showing ads is unethical now? >Maybe if the service is only marginally profitable without acting unethically it should shut down. Also I love this neo puritan thinking. I'm sure all the users of these services agree with your ideology and you forcing it down their throats is for their own good correct?
- Sylos 8y ago
  No, tracking is unethical, which most ads rely on. And yes, it is for their own good to not have thousands of databases with their data littered across the internet. I know, this is not a very American way of thinking, but no one can be an expert at everything. Most people are not experts at computers and even less can grasp the outreach and effects of their data being everywhere. These people need help just as much as the average guy needs assistance with doctors. If they knew enough to tell when a doctor is bullshitting them, they could probably become a doctor, too.
  - lajhsdfkl 8y ago
    >And yes, it is for their own good to not have thousands of databases with their data littered across the internet. "With their data". Aka whether or not they liked a group pertaining to motorcycles or whether they searched for fishing rods on google. Yeah, we definitely need to shut off what is the most consumer friendly way of monetizing services in history so that a database of inane shit that is only relevant to marketers isn't tracked.
    - Sylos 8y ago
      Well, it's not only relevant to marketers. Your two most innocent examples are not the only type of information that's going to slip in there. And even with those two examples, you just have to be creative to find ways for them to damage you: You'll probably have to pay more for your health insurance, if they find out that you enjoy motorcycles. And if your next potential employer is vegetarian, they might pass on you for fishing, a.k.a. killing things as a hobby. Someone wanting to rob/extort/kidnap/murder you, might look for you at lonely lakes in the region. And these are the most generic examples of this supposedly useless information being used against a person. Someone who happens to have an actual use, is going to be even more creative, since they'll find themselves in some particular situation where it's useful. And again, there's going to be more information. They can sift through an entire list to find the ones that are useful and they can combine multiple pieces of information, too.
- ozim 8y ago
  How showing ads is against GDPR? You still can show ads, you just need consent for tracking users. If they are going out of business because of GDPR they were not just showing ads.
  - lajhsdfkl 8y ago
    There are no ads without tracking.
    - saratogacx 8y ago
      Ads existed before tracking. DDG uses ads based on the page content, not what is known about the user. This is actually how ads were before everyone went tracking-happy. It is a model I prefer simply because it is more inline with the content I'm viewing. I'm more willing to let those ads get whitelisted because they're more likely to be related to the content I'm looking at and less about "what do we think saratogacx really wants today based on all of the data across the web."
    - ozim 8y ago
      You don't have CTR in newspapers and people still buy adverts in those.
    - AlexandrB 8y ago
      > There are no ads without tracking. I can definitively say you're wrong because I saw a billboard on my way to work today. Also, in the early internet days tracking was referred to as spyware and security software would uninstall it from your machine.
- rahoulb 8y ago
  GDPR basically says “get consent for what you do with peoples data”. If you can’t do that I would say your business model is it very ethical. Edit: or have “legitimate interest” - in either case it’s a very low bar for ethical standards so GDPR shouldn’t be an issue

tonyedgecombe 8y ago

Honestly, I don't think it would be a great loss to forgo most of the advertising funded content.

lajhsdfkl 8y ago
>Honestly, I don't think it would be a great loss to forgo most of the advertising funded content. Since you clearly haven't put much thought into this comment let's just start listing things that are funded by ads - News - content creators on youtube - music - twitch - search - blogs - websites with tutorials - a thousand different things which I have missed and then facebook, snapchat, instagram, and twitter which of course you are too good for
- paulific 8y ago
  Well there are genuinely people out there who don't use the content. Our attitudes to media and who should be watching what haven't changed much from the broadcast era. "I'm not one Facebook" is the new "I don't watch TV.
  - lajhsdfkl 8y ago
    I'm sure there are but that has nothing to do with my point. Anyway, I personally never use facebook because it is not something I find interesting. Do I feel pride in that fact? No I don't because I have an equally harmful relationship with reddit and hackernews. I always have to laugh when I see people state as a point of pride how they have deleted their facebook accounts on different social networks. If anything I think reddit and hackernews could be worse because I'm ingesting unfiltered opinions from random strangers.
- wott 8y ago
  - News Best TV and radio channels across the globe are government channels, funded by tax. - content creators on youtube & twitch 99,99% dispensable trash. - music Music funded by ads??? - search The only point that holds in your list. Could perfectly be funded by ISPs as part of our Internet subscription. - blogs & websites with tutorials No need for funding. Cost to setup is zero (provided by ISP) or close to zero (basic hosting or domain name registering).

banishwashtub 8y ago

Thing is, ads don't have to track users as individuals or at all. TV ads and print media ads are based on the content, why can't web based ads also be based on content? No more GDPR issues, we still get free content. Perhaps we can still do a pay-to-remove-ads option.