10 ms·

> People leaving the workforce to pursue homemaking and childrearing shouldn't be a societal problem if it's done voluntarily. That's a pretty big if, especial

> People leaving the workforce to pursue homemaking and childrearing shouldn't be a societal problem if it's done voluntarily. That's a pretty big if, especially given that Japanese regularly comes at the bottom of the table for equality in the workplace. While slowly crumbling in the face of decades of economic decline, the societal expectation is still that pregnant women quit their jobs and stay home with the kids.

mistermann 8y ago
Anything I've read suggest japanese women generally prefer leaving the workforce to stay home and raise kids.
- hjorthjort 8y ago
  That sentiment becomes increasingly likely the more hostile the workforce is to you, though.
  - tlear 8y ago
    It is not really hostility to women, but hostility to humans. 10 am -9pm every day often followed by drinking with coworkers.. till last train. vs raising kids. I know what I would choose.
    - sngz 8y ago
      drinking?
      - raindropm 8y ago
        Drinking/Karaoke, in order to build a connection with client or bonding with coworker is a big part of Japanese business. I bet a lot of people don't want to do it, but Japanese culture is not kind to someone who stand out from the group, so...
- vkou 8y ago
  There can be a number of potential, highly involuntary reasons for why that may be the case. 1. Your workplace will marginalize you for having children if you're a woman. 2. The cost of childcare may be so high, compared to your wages, that it makes more sense for one parent to quit their job, and raise the children. See, also: 1 for why there are few stay-at-home dads. 3. Social expectations from your family.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    As there can be with anything else. The question is, what is the reality?
    - vkou 8y ago
      I don't have practical experience with Japan, but as I understand, for many years, #1 has been the main issue. In the West, in recent decades, #2 has eclipsed it.
      - mistermann 8y ago
        #1 is certainly a big factor, no disagreement. However, I've seen very little if anything that would imply Japanese women have a problem with this. If they do prefer being a homemaker (as I would based on the insane Japanese work culture), there's not really any conflict.
        vkou 8y ago
        Many women didn't have a problem with not being able to vote in the 19th century, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a problem or any real conflict. People temper their expectations to what they can get out of life. It's easier then a lifetime of disappointment.
        qbert 8y ago
        Even if it's true that the majority prefer being homemakers, Japanese women are individuals, not an amorphous homogeneous mass. Those who do want to have careers and work outside the home shouldn't be discriminated against or forced to resign as soon as they get married or have kids. One Japanese woman I met's solution to this discrimination was to start her own company (an architecture firm). Others I knew did freelance work such as photography.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  I hate to get into these discussions (even though I somehow do :-) ). I can give you my impression having lived here for about a decade, though. In Japan traditional gender roles are a lot stronger than they currently are in the west. Trans gender (and similar -- I apologise if I am getting the terminology wrong since I'm largely ignorant of appropriate language) culture is widely accepted in the media, but not terribly accepted in wider society yet. The idea that men and women are the same is antithetical to Japanese culture. If you think about gender roles being 1950's American ideals (think "Leave it to Beaver", etc) you'd be pretty close. By and large Japanese people like it this way. Feminism is a dirty word, even amongst women as it is considered to be "too pushy". Things like wage parity are very slowly being addressed. Sexual harassment is being addressed at a much quicker pace and these days I think the vast majority of people consider it to be completely unacceptable. 10 years ago, when I first came here, I think the attitude would have been more, "It's not good, but what can you do". When I was teaching English at the local high school, the vast majority of female students said that their ultimate career goal was "housewife/mother". Some of my expat colleagues found this horrifying and even lectured their students not to "waste their life". This caused a minor uprising as Japanese people regard "housewife/mother" to be a very important role in society. Many students were upset about the message they were getting. Young women in Japan have a strangely powerful position in society. Women in Japan get married very late compared to western countries. This is one of the reasons for the low birthrate. Usually they live with their parents and contribute little or nothing to family income. They work until they decide to have children (usually in their early 30's) and then retire from work. As a woman, your 20's are where you are most free -- this is contrasted with men, where your 20's are where you are least free because you have to get your career going. In this way young women in Japan control most of the disposable income -- and you can see that in the types of luxury goods. Fashion, makeup, etc are very popular and very expensive. Young women also travel a lot and travel agencies are geared towards catering to small groups of young women. When women get married, they often have children fairly quickly. They assume the running of the household and handle all of the finances. It is completely normal for men to not have access to any money other than pocket money given to them by their wives. Lately people have credit cards, but again 10 years ago they were quite rare (especially in rural Japan where I live). Men usually didn't even have bank cards. For men, life is work to provide money for the household. For women, life is running the household. I hope it's a little easier to see that with that perspective being a housewife/mother is a fairly good life. Many young women choose this life because they can't see themselves devoting their lives to a meaningless job that just provides money. You could easily ask what the purpose would be, unless the husband is at home looking after the household. There are more "househusbands" than there used to be. As I work from home, I see them running errands occasionally. Often they tend to be of foreign origin with Japanese wives. A few years ago the mayor of Osaka actually took paternity leave and stated that all fathers should do so. It resonated well in the circles in which I travel, but I still don't see anyone else taking paternity leave. Maybe in a few more decades. Generally speaking, men like "men stuff" and women like "women stuff". Being cute and girly is considered a good thing if you are a woman. Being gruff and tough is considered a good thing if you are a man. I don't know if that will ever change (even though I know many people who find it objectionable).
- qbert 8y ago
  Those who don't are still automatically expected to however and stigmatized or discriminated against if they don't conform. When I lived in Japan and taught English conversation at a large company, one of my older male students, whom I became friends with, told me that one of my female students secretly was a single mother. He told me not to tell anyone else. Female employees at this company were basically expected to quit if they married or especially if they had children. A female student of mine at another large company originally planned to quit soon after she married because she imagined working together side by side with her husband at his family's business. After moving in with her husband's family, however, she found out they expected her to stay home and cook and clean all day (while at the same time her husband's adult sisters went out and enjoyed themselves and did no housework). She then regretted giving her notice to quit at her original job and wished she could keep working there. Smaller companies I later worked at least had married female employees although I never heard of any of them also having children.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    I wonder if there any accurate stats on the split of voluntary vs non-voluntary.

mistermann 8y ago

Anything I've read suggest japanese women generally prefer leaving the workforce to stay home and raise kids.

hjorthjort 8y ago
That sentiment becomes increasingly likely the more hostile the workforce is to you, though.
- tlear 8y ago
  It is not really hostility to women, but hostility to humans. 10 am -9pm every day often followed by drinking with coworkers.. till last train. vs raising kids. I know what I would choose.
  - sngz 8y ago
    drinking?
    - raindropm 8y ago
      Drinking/Karaoke, in order to build a connection with client or bonding with coworker is a big part of Japanese business. I bet a lot of people don't want to do it, but Japanese culture is not kind to someone who stand out from the group, so...
vkou 8y ago
There can be a number of potential, highly involuntary reasons for why that may be the case. 1. Your workplace will marginalize you for having children if you're a woman. 2. The cost of childcare may be so high, compared to your wages, that it makes more sense for one parent to quit their job, and raise the children. See, also: 1 for why there are few stay-at-home dads. 3. Social expectations from your family.
- mistermann 8y ago
  As there can be with anything else. The question is, what is the reality?
  - vkou 8y ago
    I don't have practical experience with Japan, but as I understand, for many years, #1 has been the main issue. In the West, in recent decades, #2 has eclipsed it.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      #1 is certainly a big factor, no disagreement. However, I've seen very little if anything that would imply Japanese women have a problem with this. If they do prefer being a homemaker (as I would based on the insane Japanese work culture), there's not really any conflict.
      - vkou 8y ago
        Many women didn't have a problem with not being able to vote in the 19th century, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a problem or any real conflict. People temper their expectations to what they can get out of life. It's easier then a lifetime of disappointment.
      - qbert 8y ago
        Even if it's true that the majority prefer being homemakers, Japanese women are individuals, not an amorphous homogeneous mass. Those who do want to have careers and work outside the home shouldn't be discriminated against or forced to resign as soon as they get married or have kids. One Japanese woman I met's solution to this discrimination was to start her own company (an architecture firm). Others I knew did freelance work such as photography.
mikekchar 8y ago
I hate to get into these discussions (even though I somehow do :-) ). I can give you my impression having lived here for about a decade, though. In Japan traditional gender roles are a lot stronger than they currently are in the west. Trans gender (and similar -- I apologise if I am getting the terminology wrong since I'm largely ignorant of appropriate language) culture is widely accepted in the media, but not terribly accepted in wider society yet. The idea that men and women are the same is antithetical to Japanese culture. If you think about gender roles being 1950's American ideals (think "Leave it to Beaver", etc) you'd be pretty close. By and large Japanese people like it this way. Feminism is a dirty word, even amongst women as it is considered to be "too pushy". Things like wage parity are very slowly being addressed. Sexual harassment is being addressed at a much quicker pace and these days I think the vast majority of people consider it to be completely unacceptable. 10 years ago, when I first came here, I think the attitude would have been more, "It's not good, but what can you do". When I was teaching English at the local high school, the vast majority of female students said that their ultimate career goal was "housewife/mother". Some of my expat colleagues found this horrifying and even lectured their students not to "waste their life". This caused a minor uprising as Japanese people regard "housewife/mother" to be a very important role in society. Many students were upset about the message they were getting. Young women in Japan have a strangely powerful position in society. Women in Japan get married very late compared to western countries. This is one of the reasons for the low birthrate. Usually they live with their parents and contribute little or nothing to family income. They work until they decide to have children (usually in their early 30's) and then retire from work. As a woman, your 20's are where you are most free -- this is contrasted with men, where your 20's are where you are least free because you have to get your career going. In this way young women in Japan control most of the disposable income -- and you can see that in the types of luxury goods. Fashion, makeup, etc are very popular and very expensive. Young women also travel a lot and travel agencies are geared towards catering to small groups of young women. When women get married, they often have children fairly quickly. They assume the running of the household and handle all of the finances. It is completely normal for men to not have access to any money other than pocket money given to them by their wives. Lately people have credit cards, but again 10 years ago they were quite rare (especially in rural Japan where I live). Men usually didn't even have bank cards. For men, life is work to provide money for the household. For women, life is running the household. I hope it's a little easier to see that with that perspective being a housewife/mother is a fairly good life. Many young women choose this life because they can't see themselves devoting their lives to a meaningless job that just provides money. You could easily ask what the purpose would be, unless the husband is at home looking after the household. There are more "househusbands" than there used to be. As I work from home, I see them running errands occasionally. Often they tend to be of foreign origin with Japanese wives. A few years ago the mayor of Osaka actually took paternity leave and stated that all fathers should do so. It resonated well in the circles in which I travel, but I still don't see anyone else taking paternity leave. Maybe in a few more decades. Generally speaking, men like "men stuff" and women like "women stuff". Being cute and girly is considered a good thing if you are a woman. Being gruff and tough is considered a good thing if you are a man. I don't know if that will ever change (even though I know many people who find it objectionable).
qbert 8y ago
Those who don't are still automatically expected to however and stigmatized or discriminated against if they don't conform. When I lived in Japan and taught English conversation at a large company, one of my older male students, whom I became friends with, told me that one of my female students secretly was a single mother. He told me not to tell anyone else. Female employees at this company were basically expected to quit if they married or especially if they had children. A female student of mine at another large company originally planned to quit soon after she married because she imagined working together side by side with her husband at his family's business. After moving in with her husband's family, however, she found out they expected her to stay home and cook and clean all day (while at the same time her husband's adult sisters went out and enjoyed themselves and did no housework). She then regretted giving her notice to quit at her original job and wished she could keep working there. Smaller companies I later worked at least had married female employees although I never heard of any of them also having children.
- mistermann 8y ago
  I wonder if there any accurate stats on the split of voluntary vs non-voluntary.