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> _Americans don't want those jobs back_. We really don't. > I think Dave Chappelle said it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inlDT62oGy8 https://www.

> _Americans don't want those jobs back_. We really don't. > I think Dave Chappelle said it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inlDT62oGy8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inlDT62oGy8 > "I want to wear Nikes, I don't want to make them" I don't mean to sound like a dick, but it's very easy for a multimillionaire speaking to a upper middle class audience or for an upper middle class software developer on hackernews to agree with this sentiment. I think if you asked 100 unemployed Americans living in poverty, you might hear a different answer.

jMyles 8y ago
You think that they'd say that, given the choice over whether to be given Nikes, made entirely by automation, or to have to work to make them, that they'd choose the work? I'm not saying that there aren't classes issues in play here. I'm saying that I wish poor people didn't have to wish to make shoes. Surely if we can automated all the matter around us to do our will, we can also shape instill in our economies the basic tendencies toward compassion and freedom.
- jerkstate 8y ago
  Automation is not a magic wand that means no labor, thought, decisions, or resources are used in the production of goods. Automation makes people more productive, given the same inputs, but requires knowledge to operate. It will be hundreds or thousands of years before automation is advanced enough to resemble a magic wand in the way you are describing, where no person is involved at any step of making shoes. Even then, there will be two kinds of people: those who are given magic wands and learn/are taught how to use them and keep them working, and those who need help obtaining and using magic wands. I don't think I have to tell you that there will still be a power dynamic.
  - jMyles 8y ago
    > It will be hundreds or thousands of years before automation is advanced enough But is there no gradient to be observed during that time? Aren't we already deep enough into automation to have this discussion? Did we have to ship those jobs to China? In a more just world, might the Chinese laborers be spared exposure to benzene sooner than a thousand years? > Even then, there will be two kinds of people: those who are given magic wands and learn/are taught how to use them and keep them working, and those who need help obtaining and using magic wands. There are two kinds of people in this world: people who try to convince everyone to think of things as simple dichotomies with no middle ground, and those who do not.
    - jerkstate 8y ago
      automation is clearly not sufficiently advanced that no Chinese laborers need be exposed to benzene to sate the global appetite for cheap sneakers. the trouble with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money; modern socialism tries to get around this problem by positing that there will eventually be infinite resources thanks to automation, so we should just start acting like that's already the case.
- burfog 8y ago
  On some level, people do like to work. Sure, people grumble about it. They say they hate their job. They like to take vacation. Without the job though, people have less self-esteem. People have a natural urge to be of value, to contribute, and to earn their keep. Welfare doesn't satisfy that need.

jMyles 8y ago

You think that they'd say that, given the choice over whether to be given Nikes, made entirely by automation, or to have to work to make them, that they'd choose the work? I'm not saying that there aren't classes issues in play here. I'm saying that I wish poor people didn't have to wish to make shoes. Surely if we can automated all the matter around us to do our will, we can also shape instill in our economies the basic tendencies toward compassion and freedom.

jerkstate 8y ago
Automation is not a magic wand that means no labor, thought, decisions, or resources are used in the production of goods. Automation makes people more productive, given the same inputs, but requires knowledge to operate. It will be hundreds or thousands of years before automation is advanced enough to resemble a magic wand in the way you are describing, where no person is involved at any step of making shoes. Even then, there will be two kinds of people: those who are given magic wands and learn/are taught how to use them and keep them working, and those who need help obtaining and using magic wands. I don't think I have to tell you that there will still be a power dynamic.
- jMyles 8y ago
  > It will be hundreds or thousands of years before automation is advanced enough But is there no gradient to be observed during that time? Aren't we already deep enough into automation to have this discussion? Did we have to ship those jobs to China? In a more just world, might the Chinese laborers be spared exposure to benzene sooner than a thousand years? > Even then, there will be two kinds of people: those who are given magic wands and learn/are taught how to use them and keep them working, and those who need help obtaining and using magic wands. There are two kinds of people in this world: people who try to convince everyone to think of things as simple dichotomies with no middle ground, and those who do not.
  - jerkstate 8y ago
    automation is clearly not sufficiently advanced that no Chinese laborers need be exposed to benzene to sate the global appetite for cheap sneakers. the trouble with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money; modern socialism tries to get around this problem by positing that there will eventually be infinite resources thanks to automation, so we should just start acting like that's already the case.
burfog 8y ago
On some level, people do like to work. Sure, people grumble about it. They say they hate their job. They like to take vacation. Without the job though, people have less self-esteem. People have a natural urge to be of value, to contribute, and to earn their keep. Welfare doesn't satisfy that need.