4 ms·

Its really hard to understand. I mean the newspapers were full of outsourcing stories, and how China was the world's sweatshop. The factories are there, they pr

Its really hard to understand. I mean the newspapers were full of outsourcing stories, and how China was the world's sweatshop. The factories are there, they produce stuff, they employ massive amounts of people, manufacturing things that used to be manufactured in the west. NNT was right, again.

jml7c5 9y ago
NNT?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- grzm 9y ago
  Nassim Nicholas Taleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb
mistermann 9y ago
They went from a 3rd world country to 2nd largest economy in < 20 years, their country is full of brand new wealth from skyscrapers to luxury cars to designer goods, and that wealth is also spilling over very flagrantly into numerous other countries, in some cases substantially distorting real estate markets. And the one reads articles that open with "Looking back, there were two kinds of people who lived in America in 2016: people who believed Donald Trump, and people who believed data." As if: a) Non-trump supporters read data b) Jobs disappearing due to automation could enable China to achieve its amazing transformation I can appreciate how leftists can laugh at stereotypical Trump supporters, they can be rather dumb after all, but can't wrap my head around how "Liberals" take themselves seriously, at least those who buy into the mainstream corporatist neo-liberal flavor of it. > Between 2000 and 2010, manufacturing employment plummeted by more than a third. Nearly 6 million American factory workers lost their jobs. The drop was unprecedented—worse than any decade in US manufacturing history. Even during the Great Depression, factory jobs shrunk by only 31%, according to a Information Technology & Innovation Foundation report. Though the sector recovered slightly since then, America’s manufacturing workforce is still more than 26% smaller than it was in 2000. Precisely as Ross Perot told us would happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot Based on his performance in the popular vote in 1992, Perot was entitled to receive federal election funding for 1996. Perot remained in the public eye after the election and championed opposition to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), urging voters to listen for the "giant sucking sound" of American jobs heading south to Mexico should NAFTA be ratified. To those of you who may have the urge to claim Perot wasn't entirely right, China didn't join the WTO until 2001.
forapurpose 9y ago
> manufacturing things that used to be manufactured in the west That's not how economies and economics work. It's not zero-sum at all. In fact, the more your neighbor works, the more work you have to do, because now you have someone to buy your goods and now things you need to be more productive are more available. In fact, global economic production increased around 700% in the 20th century[0]; in the U.S. since 1950 it's grown around 3,000% 1950-2010[1]. By the zero sum theory, GDP would not have grown at all and we'd all be doing the same jobs we did in 1900 or 1950, just in different places (which means not a lot of software development jobs!). Another benefit is that as worse-paying jobs move to poorer countries, the wealthier countries get better-paying, higher-skilled jobs. China has become one of the largest markets for U.S. goods, and IIRC is the world's largest market for things like smartphones. American companies make a lot of money selling goods to Chinese people, who without the manufacturing would not be able to afford them, and U.S. unemployment is below 5%. The U.S. has problems with income and wealth distribution, but other advanced economies, which have seen similar transitions from industry, don't have nearly the same difficulty. As I understand it, it's a product of U.S. law, tax codes, and government investment, which strongly favors the wealthy. For example, almost alone among advanced economies, the U.S. does not provide health care to all its citizens. That's not because China has more manufacturing jobs! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita_20th_century.GIF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita_20th... [1] https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=US%20Gross%20Domestic%20Product%20GDP%20History&year=1950_2010&sname=US&units=b&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&col=c&spending0=300.2_347.3_367.7_389.7_391.1_426.2_450.1_474.9_482_522.5_543.3_563.3_605.1_638.6_685.8_743.7_815_861.7_942.5_1019.9_1075.9_1167.8_1282.4_1428.5_1548.8_1688.9_1877.6_2086_2356.6_2632.1_2862.5_3211_3345_3638.1_4040.7_4346.7_4590.2_4870.2_5252.6_5657.7_5979.6_6174_6539.3_6878.7_7308.8_7664.1_8100.2_8608.5_9089.2_9660.6_10284.8_10621.8_10977.5_11510.7_12274.9_13093.7_13855.9_14477.6_14718.6_14418.7_14964.4 https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=US%...
- MrBuddyCasino 9y ago
  I wasn't meaning to imply that its a zero sum game, I'm totally with you on that one. The "worse-paying jobs move to poorer countries, the wealthier countries get better-paying, higher-skilled jobs" is true, but you could also phrase it differently: you now have to be this tall/smart/educated to get a job in the west because you're suddenly competing with people in china or mexico who will do it for 1/10 the wage. One could say that this is how it should work, because they need jobs more urgently than we do, and its a valid point. But tell that to an unemployed steel worker in the Rust Belt. This is how you got Trump.

jml7c5 9y ago

NNT?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
grzm 9y ago
Nassim Nicholas Taleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb

mistermann 9y ago

They went from a 3rd world country to 2nd largest economy in < 20 years, their country is full of brand new wealth from skyscrapers to luxury cars to designer goods, and that wealth is also spilling over very flagrantly into numerous other countries, in some cases substantially distorting real estate markets. And the one reads articles that open with "Looking back, there were two kinds of people who lived in America in 2016: people who believed Donald Trump, and people who believed data." As if: a) Non-trump supporters read data b) Jobs disappearing due to automation could enable China to achieve its amazing transformation I can appreciate how leftists can laugh at stereotypical Trump supporters, they can be rather dumb after all, but can't wrap my head around how "Liberals" take themselves seriously, at least those who buy into the mainstream corporatist neo-liberal flavor of it. > Between 2000 and 2010, manufacturing employment plummeted by more than a third. Nearly 6 million American factory workers lost their jobs. The drop was unprecedented—worse than any decade in US manufacturing history. Even during the Great Depression, factory jobs shrunk by only 31%, according to a Information Technology & Innovation Foundation report. Though the sector recovered slightly since then, America’s manufacturing workforce is still more than 26% smaller than it was in 2000. Precisely as Ross Perot told us would happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot Based on his performance in the popular vote in 1992, Perot was entitled to receive federal election funding for 1996. Perot remained in the public eye after the election and championed opposition to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), urging voters to listen for the "giant sucking sound" of American jobs heading south to Mexico should NAFTA be ratified. To those of you who may have the urge to claim Perot wasn't entirely right, China didn't join the WTO until 2001.

forapurpose 9y ago

> manufacturing things that used to be manufactured in the west That's not how economies and economics work. It's not zero-sum at all. In fact, the more your neighbor works, the more work you have to do, because now you have someone to buy your goods and now things you need to be more productive are more available. In fact, global economic production increased around 700% in the 20th century[0]; in the U.S. since 1950 it's grown around 3,000% 1950-2010[1]. By the zero sum theory, GDP would not have grown at all and we'd all be doing the same jobs we did in 1900 or 1950, just in different places (which means not a lot of software development jobs!). Another benefit is that as worse-paying jobs move to poorer countries, the wealthier countries get better-paying, higher-skilled jobs. China has become one of the largest markets for U.S. goods, and IIRC is the world's largest market for things like smartphones. American companies make a lot of money selling goods to Chinese people, who without the manufacturing would not be able to afford them, and U.S. unemployment is below 5%. The U.S. has problems with income and wealth distribution, but other advanced economies, which have seen similar transitions from industry, don't have nearly the same difficulty. As I understand it, it's a product of U.S. law, tax codes, and government investment, which strongly favors the wealthy. For example, almost alone among advanced economies, the U.S. does not provide health care to all its citizens. That's not because China has more manufacturing jobs! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita_20th_century.GIF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita_20th... [1] https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=US%20Gross%20Domestic%20Product%20GDP%20History&year=1950_2010&sname=US&units=b&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&col=c&spending0=300.2_347.3_367.7_389.7_391.1_426.2_450.1_474.9_482_522.5_543.3_563.3_605.1_638.6_685.8_743.7_815_861.7_942.5_1019.9_1075.9_1167.8_1282.4_1428.5_1548.8_1688.9_1877.6_2086_2356.6_2632.1_2862.5_3211_3345_3638.1_4040.7_4346.7_4590.2_4870.2_5252.6_5657.7_5979.6_6174_6539.3_6878.7_7308.8_7664.1_8100.2_8608.5_9089.2_9660.6_10284.8_10621.8_10977.5_11510.7_12274.9_13093.7_13855.9_14477.6_14718.6_14418.7_14964.4 https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=US%...

MrBuddyCasino 9y ago
I wasn't meaning to imply that its a zero sum game, I'm totally with you on that one. The "worse-paying jobs move to poorer countries, the wealthier countries get better-paying, higher-skilled jobs" is true, but you could also phrase it differently: you now have to be this tall/smart/educated to get a job in the west because you're suddenly competing with people in china or mexico who will do it for 1/10 the wage. One could say that this is how it should work, because they need jobs more urgently than we do, and its a valid point. But tell that to an unemployed steel worker in the Rust Belt. This is how you got Trump.