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As these kind of stories are so popular on HN, I recently started curating a list at https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression https://github.com/Jimnotgy

As these kind of stories are so popular on HN, I recently started curating a list at https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression I hope it helps someone one day.

blablabla123 9y ago
Definitely a nice idea. Although I'd strongly suggest to leave out the recommendation about supplements and drugs. The study PDF says that it's not clear why there's a correlation with Vitamin D deficiency but one explanation might be that people stay inside. Regarding drugs, actually people with a latent "sleeping" schizophrenia can get a psychosis even from soft drugs like Marijuana. Marijuana is a lightly psychedelic drugs, Magic Mushrooms even more so. At least you should put around a giant disclaimer and possibly also link to websites like erowid.org which go into a lot of detail, I guess they should also have details about complications, safer use etc.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  > Although I'd strongly suggest to leave out the recommendation about supplements and drugs. I don't think there are any recommendations in the list at all, just a list of reading materials to discuss with your doctor
emilepetrone 9y ago
An incredibly smart idea. Thank you. +1
da02 9y ago
Would you like to add this book to your list? I posted it to HN, but it never got any attention. "Nutrient Power: by William J. Walsh" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14603192-nutrient-power https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14603192-nutrient-power If found it via this article: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/bill-sardi/weaning-away-from-psychiatric-drugs-finally-a-wayout/ https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/bill-sardi/weaning-away-... "Dr. Walsh concludes, after years of investigation, that a gene-altering process called methylation (explained below) is involved in 70% of serious psychiatric conditions. That means it will soon be possible to molecularly reverse chronic mental problems. As brain science advances, the use of psychiatric drugs will gradually become obsolete since most mental disorders involve disturbances or imbalances of essential nutrients that alter brain function."
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  That is really interesting. Thank you I have added it
jm__87 9y ago
Good stuff. You might want to take a look at this too: https://www.mindful.org/the-mindful-way-through-depression-video/ https://www.mindful.org/the-mindful-way-through-depression-v... . "Studies in recent years have shown MBCT to be 43 per cent effective in reducing relapse in sufferers of depression—as effective as antidepressants."
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  Added too. I have promoted this up the list as well.
ryanstorm 9y ago
Thanks for doing this. You already have a lot of the links I have saved, but here's another one I found from an HN comment: http://cbtsanfrancisco.com/cbt-is-for-hackers/ http://cbtsanfrancisco.com/cbt-is-for-hackers/
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  Thanks. Added
triangleman 9y ago
No one suggested 5-HTP when you were compiling your list? It's an extremely potent precursor to serotonin (typically the thing you are trying to raise when you are hacking your way out of depression). NB do not take this supplement if you are already on an SSRI.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  Nope, do you have any links?
  - triangleman 9y ago
    Just this one: https://www.amazon.com/Prescription-Nutritional-Healing-Fifth-Practical/dp/1583334009/ https://www.amazon.com/Prescription-Nutritional-Healing-Fift... However that is just a book, and it doesn't even make a big deal out of 5-HTP in particular. I guess that's how I found out about it though. There are a number of supplements people take to tackle their own ailments including depression, and that is one of them. There's a reddit community /r/nootropics which discusses mood-altering supplements a lot.
Franciscouzo 9y ago
Here's another list that might be of interest: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes-help-if-youre-depressed/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes-h...
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  What a great article. Thank yo for sharing
pasabagi 9y ago
I appreciate you're trying to help with this list, but as somebody who suffers from depression, I can't really imagine anything more harmful. If you're suffering from depression, you're likely in partial denial. Going to a doctor represents a big change, and a big acknowledgement. Techniques like 'getting sunlight' and 'doing exercise' are infinitely more attractive - and infinitely more likely to degrade into new ways of beating yourself up and blaming yourself for your medical condition. Some people can deal with depression with meditation, self-care, and better routine. Many, however, cannot. Folk remedies are like mirages for this second group - and they put people in a circle of denial, incomplete action, and self-blame, where they try to solve their illness with ultimately ineffective remedies, then blame themselves for the ineffectiveness of the treatment. Pills, doctors, and psychiatrists are scary. As long as a depressed person believes there's a more normal option, that's what they'll go for. So this whole smorgsaboard of things that might help somebody somehow are really just a bunch of chimeras that keep people living in hell. I know this because I've done this. I went through a period of simply trying everything anybody recommended, no matter how ridiculous. Predictably, nothing worked. Drugs work. Therapy works. Asking a doctor what they recommend works. Random studies you read on the internet by people who may or may not have had the same kind of depression you have, with p-values of like, 0.1, do not work, and do not help.
- jm__87 9y ago
  Wouldn't acknowledging that you're suffering from depression and researching a list of things to help be the opposite of denial? I don't doubt there are depressed people who are in denial, but if you acknowledge your own depression and still avoid doctors and therapy, perhaps it is more likely due to some combination of things like shame, fatigue, apathy or hopelessness which often come with the depression itself? The mindfulness based cognitive therapy from my post and the CBT option recommended on another post here are both things you do with a therapist, by the way. Also I don't see how meditation, self care and better routine could be bad for someone suffering from depression, even if it doesn't lift them out of it, so I would still say this is solid advice. Edit: I would also like to clarify that if you feel depressed you should absolutely go to a doctor and try out therapy. If you don't want to do this, you need to ask yourself why you wouldn't want to go to see the people who are most qualified to help you. Is it simply because you actually don't believe a doctor or therapist can help you or is it because you feel your case is hopeless? In either case, I would say then that you have nothing to lose and you might as well go try it out anyway, just in case you are wrong. If you're right, you can have the satisfaction of feeling vindicated. If you're wrong, you'll feel better. It's a win-win. If the reason you don't want professional help is that you are ashamed someone may find out, then you need to start looking at the problem a bit more objectively. You simply have a problem that needs fixing, why not get the best people to help you fix it? And another point, if someone else judges you for wanting to feel better and have more to offer for everyone else around you, should you really give their judgement much weight? If neither of these help, maybe for right now you can just ask yourself if the shame you're predicting you'll feel in the short run is a cheap enough price to pay to feel better in the long run. I bet it is. Lastly, if you're feeling like getting professional help is just too much effort, it can help to break things up in to steps. Grab a piece of paper and a pen and write down a plan to get help. Maybe step one of the plan is you just jump on Google and find a doctor or therapist near you. Step 2 can be to call and book an appointment, step 3 can be to write down exactly what you want to discuss in your visit, step 4 can be planning how to get to the appointment (maybe plan to ask someone close for a ride or take a taxi if driving or walking there is too much), and so on. Each time you complete a step, just cross it out. With each step completed, you're on your way to feeling better and you can feel a sense of accomplishment.
markroseman 9y ago
I think this is a nice start. I'd like to see you take it further. The problem I have with your list is that it treats depression as a black box, and the solution is to throw random things at it until something sticks. There are things that can be done to better identify underlying causes. For example, your list should touch on deficiencies in iron and B12. Your symptoms can also be a clue as to which neurotransmitters are involved. Solutions need to tie back to causes. Vitamin D supplements are useful if you have a substantial Vitamin D deficiency. All the serotonin supplements in the world aren't going to help if your issue isn't a shortage of serotonin or its precursors. Understanding how different solutions relate to causes (and therefore relate to each other) gives you a smarter way to approach solutions. Full disclosure.. my psychiatrist wife and I are working on a book to help people approach mental health care in a more systematic way, trying to take the magic black box out of it. A big part is also on how you can best work with the resources you have available (we're in Canada, so different but comparable range of limitations as in the UK).
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  Thanks for the input. I can't disagree. It is a pretty recent project, and just a list of bookmarks at the moment. I would love more collaborators to help push it one way or another. More than happy to plug your book on there btw! If you have anything you would like to write or share please feel free.

blablabla123 9y ago

Definitely a nice idea. Although I'd strongly suggest to leave out the recommendation about supplements and drugs. The study PDF says that it's not clear why there's a correlation with Vitamin D deficiency but one explanation might be that people stay inside. Regarding drugs, actually people with a latent "sleeping" schizophrenia can get a psychosis even from soft drugs like Marijuana. Marijuana is a lightly psychedelic drugs, Magic Mushrooms even more so. At least you should put around a giant disclaimer and possibly also link to websites like erowid.org which go into a lot of detail, I guess they should also have details about complications, safer use etc.

jimnotgym 9y ago
> Although I'd strongly suggest to leave out the recommendation about supplements and drugs. I don't think there are any recommendations in the list at all, just a list of reading materials to discuss with your doctor

emilepetrone 9y ago

An incredibly smart idea. Thank you. +1

da02 9y ago

Would you like to add this book to your list? I posted it to HN, but it never got any attention. "Nutrient Power: by William J. Walsh" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14603192-nutrient-power https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14603192-nutrient-power If found it via this article: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/bill-sardi/weaning-away-from-psychiatric-drugs-finally-a-wayout/ https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/bill-sardi/weaning-away-... "Dr. Walsh concludes, after years of investigation, that a gene-altering process called methylation (explained below) is involved in 70% of serious psychiatric conditions. That means it will soon be possible to molecularly reverse chronic mental problems. As brain science advances, the use of psychiatric drugs will gradually become obsolete since most mental disorders involve disturbances or imbalances of essential nutrients that alter brain function."

jimnotgym 9y ago
That is really interesting. Thank you I have added it

jm__87 9y ago

Good stuff. You might want to take a look at this too: https://www.mindful.org/the-mindful-way-through-depression-video/ https://www.mindful.org/the-mindful-way-through-depression-v... . "Studies in recent years have shown MBCT to be 43 per cent effective in reducing relapse in sufferers of depression—as effective as antidepressants."

jimnotgym 9y ago
Added too. I have promoted this up the list as well.

ryanstorm 9y ago

Thanks for doing this. You already have a lot of the links I have saved, but here's another one I found from an HN comment: http://cbtsanfrancisco.com/cbt-is-for-hackers/ http://cbtsanfrancisco.com/cbt-is-for-hackers/

jimnotgym 9y ago
Thanks. Added

triangleman 9y ago

No one suggested 5-HTP when you were compiling your list? It's an extremely potent precursor to serotonin (typically the thing you are trying to raise when you are hacking your way out of depression). NB do not take this supplement if you are already on an SSRI.

jimnotgym 9y ago
Nope, do you have any links?
- triangleman 9y ago
  Just this one: https://www.amazon.com/Prescription-Nutritional-Healing-Fifth-Practical/dp/1583334009/ https://www.amazon.com/Prescription-Nutritional-Healing-Fift... However that is just a book, and it doesn't even make a big deal out of 5-HTP in particular. I guess that's how I found out about it though. There are a number of supplements people take to tackle their own ailments including depression, and that is one of them. There's a reddit community /r/nootropics which discusses mood-altering supplements a lot.

Franciscouzo 9y ago

Here's another list that might be of interest: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes-help-if-youre-depressed/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes-h...

jimnotgym 9y ago
What a great article. Thank yo for sharing

pasabagi 9y ago

I appreciate you're trying to help with this list, but as somebody who suffers from depression, I can't really imagine anything more harmful. If you're suffering from depression, you're likely in partial denial. Going to a doctor represents a big change, and a big acknowledgement. Techniques like 'getting sunlight' and 'doing exercise' are infinitely more attractive - and infinitely more likely to degrade into new ways of beating yourself up and blaming yourself for your medical condition. Some people can deal with depression with meditation, self-care, and better routine. Many, however, cannot. Folk remedies are like mirages for this second group - and they put people in a circle of denial, incomplete action, and self-blame, where they try to solve their illness with ultimately ineffective remedies, then blame themselves for the ineffectiveness of the treatment. Pills, doctors, and psychiatrists are scary. As long as a depressed person believes there's a more normal option, that's what they'll go for. So this whole smorgsaboard of things that might help somebody somehow are really just a bunch of chimeras that keep people living in hell. I know this because I've done this. I went through a period of simply trying everything anybody recommended, no matter how ridiculous. Predictably, nothing worked. Drugs work. Therapy works. Asking a doctor what they recommend works. Random studies you read on the internet by people who may or may not have had the same kind of depression you have, with p-values of like, 0.1, do not work, and do not help.

jm__87 9y ago
Wouldn't acknowledging that you're suffering from depression and researching a list of things to help be the opposite of denial? I don't doubt there are depressed people who are in denial, but if you acknowledge your own depression and still avoid doctors and therapy, perhaps it is more likely due to some combination of things like shame, fatigue, apathy or hopelessness which often come with the depression itself? The mindfulness based cognitive therapy from my post and the CBT option recommended on another post here are both things you do with a therapist, by the way. Also I don't see how meditation, self care and better routine could be bad for someone suffering from depression, even if it doesn't lift them out of it, so I would still say this is solid advice. Edit: I would also like to clarify that if you feel depressed you should absolutely go to a doctor and try out therapy. If you don't want to do this, you need to ask yourself why you wouldn't want to go to see the people who are most qualified to help you. Is it simply because you actually don't believe a doctor or therapist can help you or is it because you feel your case is hopeless? In either case, I would say then that you have nothing to lose and you might as well go try it out anyway, just in case you are wrong. If you're right, you can have the satisfaction of feeling vindicated. If you're wrong, you'll feel better. It's a win-win. If the reason you don't want professional help is that you are ashamed someone may find out, then you need to start looking at the problem a bit more objectively. You simply have a problem that needs fixing, why not get the best people to help you fix it? And another point, if someone else judges you for wanting to feel better and have more to offer for everyone else around you, should you really give their judgement much weight? If neither of these help, maybe for right now you can just ask yourself if the shame you're predicting you'll feel in the short run is a cheap enough price to pay to feel better in the long run. I bet it is. Lastly, if you're feeling like getting professional help is just too much effort, it can help to break things up in to steps. Grab a piece of paper and a pen and write down a plan to get help. Maybe step one of the plan is you just jump on Google and find a doctor or therapist near you. Step 2 can be to call and book an appointment, step 3 can be to write down exactly what you want to discuss in your visit, step 4 can be planning how to get to the appointment (maybe plan to ask someone close for a ride or take a taxi if driving or walking there is too much), and so on. Each time you complete a step, just cross it out. With each step completed, you're on your way to feeling better and you can feel a sense of accomplishment.

markroseman 9y ago

I think this is a nice start. I'd like to see you take it further. The problem I have with your list is that it treats depression as a black box, and the solution is to throw random things at it until something sticks. There are things that can be done to better identify underlying causes. For example, your list should touch on deficiencies in iron and B12. Your symptoms can also be a clue as to which neurotransmitters are involved. Solutions need to tie back to causes. Vitamin D supplements are useful if you have a substantial Vitamin D deficiency. All the serotonin supplements in the world aren't going to help if your issue isn't a shortage of serotonin or its precursors. Understanding how different solutions relate to causes (and therefore relate to each other) gives you a smarter way to approach solutions. Full disclosure.. my psychiatrist wife and I are working on a book to help people approach mental health care in a more systematic way, trying to take the magic black box out of it. A big part is also on how you can best work with the resources you have available (we're in Canada, so different but comparable range of limitations as in the UK).

jimnotgym 9y ago
Thanks for the input. I can't disagree. It is a pretty recent project, and just a list of bookmarks at the moment. I would love more collaborators to help push it one way or another. More than happy to plug your book on there btw! If you have anything you would like to write or share please feel free.