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Shaming works. In Ontario, Canada DUI offenders must install a Ignition Interlock Program. Which is basically a breathalyzer that the driver must blow in to st

by moltar 9y ago

Shaming works. In Ontario, Canada DUI offenders must install a Ignition Interlock Program. Which is basically a breathalyzer that the driver must blow in to start the car. And if that is not shameful enough, there’s another shameful add-on: an red/amber light the offender must install on the front bumper, dead center. The light activates if you fail the the test after you were driving for a bit. But the light doesn’t need to be turned on to shame. It’s very obvious that it’s there, even when it’s off.

John_KZ 9y ago
But this is done through court orders and a due process, correct? On repeated offenders, for the benefit of themselves too? What's described in the article isn't the same. You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. You also shouldn't ostracize those people from society. If they committed a crime, enforce the punishment. Is it a fine? Jail time? Withholding a portion future wages? Do so. Shaming has no place in modern society. The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. How are they going to earn money and repay their debts if they are denied transportation (amongst "many" other things)? And finally, shouldn't we be shaming the financial institution for loaning money to individuals without any legal guarantees and no collateral? Aren't they the ones that should manage this risk? Aren't they the ones reaping benefits for this? This is a very dangerous game to play. And I certainly don't like bunching up those who owe millions and can afford to pay back, and those who owe hundreds and are probably living in poverty. Keep the shaming for public figures, not private individuals.
- rectang 9y ago
  The main benefit of shaming is to satisfy the savage craving in those witnessing the shaming to feel morally superior to the humiliated party. In that sense, it "works". Other citizens see the shamed party and feel security knowing that there is someone lower than them in the social hierarchy. "It is not enough to win -- others must lose." When rehabilitation or deterrence is the actual rather than the ostensible goal, more effective methods will be chosen.
  - chillingeffect 9y ago
    I'm glad you pointed this out. One can extend the theory to include the psychology of narcissism, in which the narcissist spreads their shame to others.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    As Aldous Huxley said. "Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"
- shaobo 9y ago
  > You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. This is done by local courts, not the financial institutions. And if you read related article on this kind of name and shame tactic, you find that it is designed for debtors who are capable of repaying their debts but choose to defy court orders. Hence the travel restrictions are for flights and high-speed trains, and not regular trains or other public transports. from http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-debtors-2017-12 http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-de... "Restrictions are placed on "high-expenditure consumption" and "consumption not necessary to sustain normal life or businesses" for individual defaulters as well as the legal representatives and CEOs of companies that default."
  - DaggerDagger 9y ago
    Surprisingly progressive. This is because they don't have debtors prison?
  - Animats 9y ago
    Now that could work. White-collar offenders in the US could be placed on the "no-fly list", and denied landing rights for private jets. They could still drive, take trains, or go by ship.
- isostatic 9y ago
  "The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. " How is that possible? You walk up, ask for a ticket to $wherever, pay the cash, and leave.
  - sitharus 9y ago
    Not in China! In China you typically need to present ID for all travellers to buy a ticket, at least on the new high speed services that are mentioned in the article. When I was there 15 years ago you needed ID for all regional services, though that could be because I was travelling in to Shanghai.
    - isostatic 9y ago
      Are tickets named, or could you get a friend to buy? Only trains I've taken in China is to/from Beijing airport, and the metro
      - rahimnathwani 9y ago
        Tickets are named and have a record of your ID number (national ID card or, for foreigners, passport). On the train, the ticket inspector checks that the details match, and that your face matches that on the ID document. This doesn't apply to metro services (like the Beijing subway or the Beijing airport express that you mention).
        netsharc 9y ago
        Geezus. Russia used to have internal passports/travel permits, this smells like something similar but implemented through the rail network, it wouldn't be hard to implement a "house arrest" by disallowing ticket sales to some people. I guess they can still hop in a car to travel. Requiring ID also makes surveillance of people's movements, although I guess monitoring your SIM card is more effective.
ams6110 9y ago
Very common around where I am to see shops post names and dollar amounts of bad checks people have written.
castratikron 9y ago
In Minnesota (and maybe a couple other states) DUI offenders are given a special license plate for their car. They're easily identifiable by their plain white background and the fact that every one of these plates starts with the letter 'W', which gives them the name "whiskey plates". Police officers in Minnesota used to be able to pull over any whiskey plate car without needing any reason to do so, which was eventually found to be unconstitutional by the state supreme court. http://www.careydwidefense.com/MN-Whiskey-Plates.html http://www.careydwidefense.com/MN-Whiskey-Plates.html
- isostatic 9y ago
  Is that a lifetime sentence for DUI? Or does it 'time out'? How long are typical bans?
  - grzm 9y ago
    This provides a lot of details: http://www.dwiguys.com/whiskey-plates/ http://www.dwiguys.com/whiskey-plates/
    - isostatic 9y ago
      That's interesting. Only the most egregious offences, and it only lasts 1 year (presumably that's 1 year after your driving ban expires - not concurrently). However it looks like to me (and this is hilarious if I've interpreted it correctly), if you're in a rental and get a DUI, the rental firm gets the plates?
isostatic 9y ago
That sounds great (ok not the light on the front which sounds like a hazard for pedestrians). I'd love to know if I was over the limit or not before getting in the car if I'd had a beer at lunch, or had several the night before.
- rectang 9y ago
  Why does it sound "great"? There's nothing in the original post to support the assertion that "shaming works". This is the question we need to ask: Are the shaming aspects of this policy effective at preventing drunk driving? All I see is the humiliation of a public branding. That's "effective" in the sense that "tough on crime" political demagogues can use it to win votes from the brutalized electorate. But shouldn't an engineering community like ours have higher aspirations? For instance, there is an actual solution to drunk driving on the horizon: self-driving cars.
  - isostatic 9y ago
    I don't want to drive drunk Therefore I would be quite happy to have something built in my car that checks I'm not drunk before I turn on the engine I'd be even more happy in the very hypothetical case where I'm willing to drive drunk (say a volcano had just erupted) and all it would do is light up a warning light (that said I know when I've had too much to drink -- like now at 2300 after a succefull 12 hour day, and wouldn't drive, it's when I'm in that 'I don't know if I'm impared state', that's where the breathalyser comes in helpful, so there's no need in my case to do anything with the results other than present them to me)
    - FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
      > Therefore I would be quite happy to have something built in my car that checks I'm not drunk before I turn on the engine If that's truly the case, it's trivial to get a voluntary interlock ignition device installed on your car. You'd most likely save on the cost since there is no government mandated reporting. That said, I'd recommend not driving at all if you know in advance that you are going to be drinking. At least in metropolitan areas, there are far too many mostly affordable and convenient options IMO to risk it. Even a couple of drinks for a 180+lb person is going to cause impairment.

by moltar 9y ago

John_KZ 9y ago

But this is done through court orders and a due process, correct? On repeated offenders, for the benefit of themselves too? What's described in the article isn't the same. You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. You also shouldn't ostracize those people from society. If they committed a crime, enforce the punishment. Is it a fine? Jail time? Withholding a portion future wages? Do so. Shaming has no place in modern society. The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. How are they going to earn money and repay their debts if they are denied transportation (amongst "many" other things)? And finally, shouldn't we be shaming the financial institution for loaning money to individuals without any legal guarantees and no collateral? Aren't they the ones that should manage this risk? Aren't they the ones reaping benefits for this? This is a very dangerous game to play. And I certainly don't like bunching up those who owe millions and can afford to pay back, and those who owe hundreds and are probably living in poverty. Keep the shaming for public figures, not private individuals.

rectang 9y ago
The main benefit of shaming is to satisfy the savage craving in those witnessing the shaming to feel morally superior to the humiliated party. In that sense, it "works". Other citizens see the shamed party and feel security knowing that there is someone lower than them in the social hierarchy. "It is not enough to win -- others must lose." When rehabilitation or deterrence is the actual rather than the ostensible goal, more effective methods will be chosen.
- chillingeffect 9y ago
  I'm glad you pointed this out. One can extend the theory to include the psychology of narcissism, in which the narcissist spreads their shame to others.
- walshemj 9y ago
  As Aldous Huxley said. "Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"
shaobo 9y ago
> You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. This is done by local courts, not the financial institutions. And if you read related article on this kind of name and shame tactic, you find that it is designed for debtors who are capable of repaying their debts but choose to defy court orders. Hence the travel restrictions are for flights and high-speed trains, and not regular trains or other public transports. from http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-debtors-2017-12 http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-de... "Restrictions are placed on "high-expenditure consumption" and "consumption not necessary to sustain normal life or businesses" for individual defaulters as well as the legal representatives and CEOs of companies that default."
- DaggerDagger 9y ago
  Surprisingly progressive. This is because they don't have debtors prison?
- Animats 9y ago
  Now that could work. White-collar offenders in the US could be placed on the "no-fly list", and denied landing rights for private jets. They could still drive, take trains, or go by ship.
isostatic 9y ago
"The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. " How is that possible? You walk up, ask for a ticket to $wherever, pay the cash, and leave.
- sitharus 9y ago
  Not in China! In China you typically need to present ID for all travellers to buy a ticket, at least on the new high speed services that are mentioned in the article. When I was there 15 years ago you needed ID for all regional services, though that could be because I was travelling in to Shanghai.
  - isostatic 9y ago
    Are tickets named, or could you get a friend to buy? Only trains I've taken in China is to/from Beijing airport, and the metro
    - rahimnathwani 9y ago
      Tickets are named and have a record of your ID number (national ID card or, for foreigners, passport). On the train, the ticket inspector checks that the details match, and that your face matches that on the ID document. This doesn't apply to metro services (like the Beijing subway or the Beijing airport express that you mention).
      - netsharc 9y ago
        Geezus. Russia used to have internal passports/travel permits, this smells like something similar but implemented through the rail network, it wouldn't be hard to implement a "house arrest" by disallowing ticket sales to some people. I guess they can still hop in a car to travel. Requiring ID also makes surveillance of people's movements, although I guess monitoring your SIM card is more effective.

ams6110 9y ago

Very common around where I am to see shops post names and dollar amounts of bad checks people have written.

castratikron 9y ago

In Minnesota (and maybe a couple other states) DUI offenders are given a special license plate for their car. They're easily identifiable by their plain white background and the fact that every one of these plates starts with the letter 'W', which gives them the name "whiskey plates". Police officers in Minnesota used to be able to pull over any whiskey plate car without needing any reason to do so, which was eventually found to be unconstitutional by the state supreme court. http://www.careydwidefense.com/MN-Whiskey-Plates.html http://www.careydwidefense.com/MN-Whiskey-Plates.html

isostatic 9y ago
Is that a lifetime sentence for DUI? Or does it 'time out'? How long are typical bans?
- grzm 9y ago
  This provides a lot of details: http://www.dwiguys.com/whiskey-plates/ http://www.dwiguys.com/whiskey-plates/
  - isostatic 9y ago
    That's interesting. Only the most egregious offences, and it only lasts 1 year (presumably that's 1 year after your driving ban expires - not concurrently). However it looks like to me (and this is hilarious if I've interpreted it correctly), if you're in a rental and get a DUI, the rental firm gets the plates?

isostatic 9y ago

That sounds great (ok not the light on the front which sounds like a hazard for pedestrians). I'd love to know if I was over the limit or not before getting in the car if I'd had a beer at lunch, or had several the night before.

rectang 9y ago
Why does it sound "great"? There's nothing in the original post to support the assertion that "shaming works". This is the question we need to ask: Are the shaming aspects of this policy effective at preventing drunk driving? All I see is the humiliation of a public branding. That's "effective" in the sense that "tough on crime" political demagogues can use it to win votes from the brutalized electorate. But shouldn't an engineering community like ours have higher aspirations? For instance, there is an actual solution to drunk driving on the horizon: self-driving cars.
- isostatic 9y ago
  I don't want to drive drunk Therefore I would be quite happy to have something built in my car that checks I'm not drunk before I turn on the engine I'd be even more happy in the very hypothetical case where I'm willing to drive drunk (say a volcano had just erupted) and all it would do is light up a warning light (that said I know when I've had too much to drink -- like now at 2300 after a succefull 12 hour day, and wouldn't drive, it's when I'm in that 'I don't know if I'm impared state', that's where the breathalyser comes in helpful, so there's no need in my case to do anything with the results other than present them to me)
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
    > Therefore I would be quite happy to have something built in my car that checks I'm not drunk before I turn on the engine If that's truly the case, it's trivial to get a voluntary interlock ignition device installed on your car. You'd most likely save on the cost since there is no government mandated reporting. That said, I'd recommend not driving at all if you know in advance that you are going to be drinking. At least in metropolitan areas, there are far too many mostly affordable and convenient options IMO to risk it. Even a couple of drinks for a 180+lb person is going to cause impairment.