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The Master said: "If the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no sense

The Master said: "If the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no sense of shame. If they be led by virtue, and uniformity sought to be given them by the rules of propriety, they will have the sense of shame, and moreover will become good." - Analects of Confucius, book II

bitL 8y ago
I am glad western civilization invented internal guilt instead of external shame.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  External shame is quite prevalent in western civilization, especially with regards to sexuality.
  - bitL 8y ago
    Shame is the default; society evolved past "appearance", "crab mentality", "averageness", "complacency", "argument from authority" and provided a consistent framework allowing a single individual to stand against the whole society based on internal moral grounds.
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  Internal guilt doesn't work with sociopaths and companies.
  - bitL 8y ago
    I consider them as hackers; they simply hacked societal rules for their benefit, silently observing what worked and what didn't. Permanent surveillance is one of major threats to them, so that's one of the reasons they try to get to the top of tech companies, to be the ruling technocrats instead of tracked majority. We don't have much time to stop them.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    It doesn't work for many people who think 'there's no victim', or 'the victim can afford it' Lets say you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machine. Nobody checks your ticket. You then get out at a manned station, but can just walk off. Do you buy a ticket? Many who don't will think "I don't need to", not "I just broke the law" or "I just committed a crime" How about you instead also get off at an unmanned station. How many people will seek out a way to pay their fare? You don't have to be a sociopath to not feel guilty.
- ewrcoffee 8y ago
  This is mostly lost in translation. The original quote has nothing to do with external shame.

bitL 8y ago

I am glad western civilization invented internal guilt instead of external shame.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
External shame is quite prevalent in western civilization, especially with regards to sexuality.
- bitL 8y ago
  Shame is the default; society evolved past "appearance", "crab mentality", "averageness", "complacency", "argument from authority" and provided a consistent framework allowing a single individual to stand against the whole society based on internal moral grounds.
HarryHirsch 8y ago
Internal guilt doesn't work with sociopaths and companies.
- bitL 8y ago
  I consider them as hackers; they simply hacked societal rules for their benefit, silently observing what worked and what didn't. Permanent surveillance is one of major threats to them, so that's one of the reasons they try to get to the top of tech companies, to be the ruling technocrats instead of tracked majority. We don't have much time to stop them.
- isostatic 8y ago
  It doesn't work for many people who think 'there's no victim', or 'the victim can afford it' Lets say you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machine. Nobody checks your ticket. You then get out at a manned station, but can just walk off. Do you buy a ticket? Many who don't will think "I don't need to", not "I just broke the law" or "I just committed a crime" How about you instead also get off at an unmanned station. How many people will seek out a way to pay their fare? You don't have to be a sociopath to not feel guilty.
ewrcoffee 8y ago
This is mostly lost in translation. The original quote has nothing to do with external shame.