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This is the single thing that freaked me out the most about our military and made me realize it wasn't the place for me when I joined at 17. Being a high school

This is the single thing that freaked me out the most about our military and made me realize it wasn't the place for me when I joined at 17. Being a high school kid and meeting people who will look you straight in the eye and laugh as they talk about murdering someone, or watching their comrade's head explode. And not hypothetically, but in real, gruesome detail. I guess there's a need for that kind of person to exist to do our dirty work. But they are broken human beings and it is an absolute tragedy.

JackCh 9y ago
>"people who will look you straight in the eye and laugh as they talk about murdering someone" Murdering, or killing? I ask because murder refers to a specific sort of unlawful killing, but it's not clear if you're using the term precisely. Most would probably say there's substantial difference between laughing about killing somebody who was trying to kill you (not murder) and laughing about killing a civilian in cold blood (murder).
- aphextron 9y ago
  One person's killing is another's murder. The act is the same regardless. There is no innocent self defense in war.
  - JackCh 9y ago
    > "The act is the same regardless." I think most would say context matters.
    - drdeadringer 9y ago
      Legally, at least.
      - JackCh 9y ago
        I think most people would say that context matters ethically or morally too.
    - Viliam1234 9y ago
      Excuses _are_ important; it's just the reality that remains the same.
- watwut 9y ago
  Why is it unclear that he uses term badly? His statement was clear. It sounds more like you just don't want to believe that someone would brag to him specifically about murder.
  - JackCh 9y ago
    The line "I guess there's a need for that kind of person to exist to do our dirty work." made me suspect he was talking about killing not murdering (I presume he wouldn't say that about murderers.) His response to me seemed to confirm he was using the word murder in a loose sense to include lawful killing.. that's how I read it anyway. Also, I didn't say he used the term "badly", I wondered if he was using it precisely. Maybe you think linguistic imprecision is bad, but my intent was to suss out his meaning, not criticize how he uses language. I'm more interested in the meaning behind the words.
alexashka 9y ago
A calf is no more perfect than the wolf that rips it apart and eats it. There's no reason to assume other people are like you, and that if someone's not, that they're better or worse, broken or holy.
- Thiez 9y ago
  Apples and oranges. I'd wager that most people would agree that there is something fundamentally broken with a calf that rips apart other calves.
  - alexashka 9y ago
    Right. To assume people are anything like calves, is incredibly delusional. Valuing human life for it's own sake is an incredibly recent phenomena, and the jury is still out on whether or not it's a good idea, since we make trade-offs everyday, we just pretend otherwise. (Speed limit on vehicles being the most popular example of this, we could decrease the speed limit and save lives, but it'd inconvenience many people, so we don't.)
rootusrootus 9y ago
That feels like a fairly unique experience. I was in the military and I don't recall ever meeting anyone with that sort of attitude towards killing or death. On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it. I met this fellow musician at a jam session in St. Paul. Somehow the conversation got around to the military, and he proudly said he was the 3rd generation of men in his family who had signed up for the Marines. He bragged that it was the way the men in his family got to kill people. As in, they enjoyed it, and that was the legal and moral way to do it. It's not like the family was poor and had to do it, either. He was a...fellow who could cause consternation. However, he was quite likable in a way as well. I'm glad that such people exist and manage to lead law abiding, productive lives.
  - ryanmarsh 9y ago
    Bragged about killing. Nope. That’s how you know he didn’t see any shit.
    - fapjacks 9y ago
      This is one of those rules with essentially zero exceptions. Nobody that's telling the truth ever brags about that.
      - JackCh 9y ago
        Do you wager Ernst Jünger fabricated his memoir? I strongly suspect there are exceptions to this rule. At the very least we know there exist people in prisons today who enjoy murder. Arguably that's very different since (I assume) 'enjoying killing' and 'enjoying getting shot back at' are worlds apart. But, would it surprise you if there was a small minority of drone operators who genuinely enjoyed their work? Then again I suppose (hope) the modern military system might select against that kind of mindset.
pryce 9y ago
I think often the amount of 'dirty work' we end up engaging in expands to fill the space allocated to it.
okyougotmenow 9y ago
> when I joined at 17 Are you sure they weren't just trying to fuck with the naive newbie?
- ryanmarsh 9y ago
  No. We’d never do that in the military. smirk

JackCh 9y ago

>"people who will look you straight in the eye and laugh as they talk about murdering someone" Murdering, or killing? I ask because murder refers to a specific sort of unlawful killing, but it's not clear if you're using the term precisely. Most would probably say there's substantial difference between laughing about killing somebody who was trying to kill you (not murder) and laughing about killing a civilian in cold blood (murder).

aphextron 9y ago
One person's killing is another's murder. The act is the same regardless. There is no innocent self defense in war.
- JackCh 9y ago
  > "The act is the same regardless." I think most would say context matters.
  - drdeadringer 9y ago
    Legally, at least.
    - JackCh 9y ago
      I think most people would say that context matters ethically or morally too.
  - Viliam1234 9y ago
    Excuses _are_ important; it's just the reality that remains the same.
watwut 9y ago
Why is it unclear that he uses term badly? His statement was clear. It sounds more like you just don't want to believe that someone would brag to him specifically about murder.
- JackCh 9y ago
  The line "I guess there's a need for that kind of person to exist to do our dirty work." made me suspect he was talking about killing not murdering (I presume he wouldn't say that about murderers.) His response to me seemed to confirm he was using the word murder in a loose sense to include lawful killing.. that's how I read it anyway. Also, I didn't say he used the term "badly", I wondered if he was using it precisely. Maybe you think linguistic imprecision is bad, but my intent was to suss out his meaning, not criticize how he uses language. I'm more interested in the meaning behind the words.

alexashka 9y ago

A calf is no more perfect than the wolf that rips it apart and eats it. There's no reason to assume other people are like you, and that if someone's not, that they're better or worse, broken or holy.

Thiez 9y ago
Apples and oranges. I'd wager that most people would agree that there is something fundamentally broken with a calf that rips apart other calves.
- alexashka 9y ago
  Right. To assume people are anything like calves, is incredibly delusional. Valuing human life for it's own sake is an incredibly recent phenomena, and the jury is still out on whether or not it's a good idea, since we make trade-offs everyday, we just pretend otherwise. (Speed limit on vehicles being the most popular example of this, we could decrease the speed limit and save lives, but it'd inconvenience many people, so we don't.)

rootusrootus 9y ago

That feels like a fairly unique experience. I was in the military and I don't recall ever meeting anyone with that sort of attitude towards killing or death. On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it.

stcredzero 9y ago
On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it. I met this fellow musician at a jam session in St. Paul. Somehow the conversation got around to the military, and he proudly said he was the 3rd generation of men in his family who had signed up for the Marines. He bragged that it was the way the men in his family got to kill people. As in, they enjoyed it, and that was the legal and moral way to do it. It's not like the family was poor and had to do it, either. He was a...fellow who could cause consternation. However, he was quite likable in a way as well. I'm glad that such people exist and manage to lead law abiding, productive lives.
- ryanmarsh 9y ago
  Bragged about killing. Nope. That’s how you know he didn’t see any shit.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    This is one of those rules with essentially zero exceptions. Nobody that's telling the truth ever brags about that.
    - JackCh 9y ago
      Do you wager Ernst Jünger fabricated his memoir? I strongly suspect there are exceptions to this rule. At the very least we know there exist people in prisons today who enjoy murder. Arguably that's very different since (I assume) 'enjoying killing' and 'enjoying getting shot back at' are worlds apart. But, would it surprise you if there was a small minority of drone operators who genuinely enjoyed their work? Then again I suppose (hope) the modern military system might select against that kind of mindset.

pryce 9y ago

I think often the amount of 'dirty work' we end up engaging in expands to fill the space allocated to it.

okyougotmenow 9y ago

> when I joined at 17 Are you sure they weren't just trying to fuck with the naive newbie?

ryanmarsh 9y ago
No. We’d never do that in the military. smirk