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Since this was written in the 80s and it’s Esquire, it’s highly possible that the author is a military-industrial complex shill. Or an apologist at best. The o

Since this was written in the 80s and it’s Esquire, it’s highly possible that the author is a military-industrial complex shill. Or an apologist at best. The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals.

TheAdamAndChe 8y ago
When I was a young man, the military appealed to me. I liked its presentation of power. Its structure, order, and clear roles seemed to provide a sense of purpose. Maybe war itself would be bad, but the structures and forces that war brings seem like they wouldn't necessarily be bad for everyone. Not everyone thinks or feels like you. That doesn't necessarily make them morally corrupt individuals.
- ShabbosGoy 8y ago
  > Not everyone thinks or feels like you. That doesn't necessarily make them morally corrupt individuals. Who are you trying to convince? :) If violence appeals to you, then by all means, embrace it. If you are a morally wicked person, then embrace it. But denying your true nature is strange to me.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  All of the things you listed could also be found on an oil rig: clear roles, a sense of purpose, and the sleep deprivation (not listed but it builds character.) It's quite close to the Keynesian "it's good for the government to spend therefore it's good buy fighters" argument: sure, it creates jobs/funds research, but why not spend the same effort (and far fewer lives) on building the next supercollider or something? War can be a laudable sacrifice if it's necessary but it seems that some are trying to abstract the "good" from the condition.
1000units 8y ago
I agree with you except for the morals part. I think there's a fancy name for looking back fondly on traumatic experiences.
tatersolid 8y ago
> The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals. Says a person who has never truly faced a grave moral test in his life. I have known many veterans of horrific combat from Okinawa through Afghanistan. They all will tell you they loved it in some bizarre, insane fashion. Yet these same people are the most trustworthy, truly moral people I have ever known. They have touched the abyss, and you and I have not. They understand things we never will.
- watwut 8y ago
  Saying that you love war is like love massive earthquake in habitated area. That is what people react to - they are aware of massive destruction, hunger (both soldiers and civilians), freezing babies, break of laws, abuse, thousands of families without resources, displaced, soldiers being invalides till rest of their lives. Veterans being unable to live in peace again. War means rise of authoritarian regimes and terrorist groups too. War is not just action and adrenalin. It is also rape and toddlers dying of hunger. It is ethnic massacres.
- ShabbosGoy 8y ago
  There’s a difference between being willing to die for certain ideals (i.e. like the Gauls during Julius Caesar’s campaigns) and loving wanton bloodshed. That’s the point I was trying to make. If you can’t understand the difference between fighting a defensive war and an aggressive war, you need a reality check. Also, I’m not sure why both my replies were flagged - I believe I was acting extremely civil.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    But it's neither the willingness to die or the bloodshed itself. Thích Quảng Đức had the willingness and courage to die for a cause, but you'll have a great difficulty recruiting many to do what he did.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Look, this "abyss" you're talking about can be "reached" by anybody, and I don't have to say how. It's not actually something that we want ourselves or our fellow man to do. It doesn't make you better, if any of it sticks you're worse. Going on deployment and finding something that improves you is like going to a bar/casino in Las Vegas and finding Mormonism. Sure, it can happen, but it's not what happens.

TheAdamAndChe 8y ago

When I was a young man, the military appealed to me. I liked its presentation of power. Its structure, order, and clear roles seemed to provide a sense of purpose. Maybe war itself would be bad, but the structures and forces that war brings seem like they wouldn't necessarily be bad for everyone. Not everyone thinks or feels like you. That doesn't necessarily make them morally corrupt individuals.

ShabbosGoy 8y ago
> Not everyone thinks or feels like you. That doesn't necessarily make them morally corrupt individuals. Who are you trying to convince? :) If violence appeals to you, then by all means, embrace it. If you are a morally wicked person, then embrace it. But denying your true nature is strange to me.
whatshisface 8y ago
All of the things you listed could also be found on an oil rig: clear roles, a sense of purpose, and the sleep deprivation (not listed but it builds character.) It's quite close to the Keynesian "it's good for the government to spend therefore it's good buy fighters" argument: sure, it creates jobs/funds research, but why not spend the same effort (and far fewer lives) on building the next supercollider or something? War can be a laudable sacrifice if it's necessary but it seems that some are trying to abstract the "good" from the condition.

1000units 8y ago

I agree with you except for the morals part. I think there's a fancy name for looking back fondly on traumatic experiences.

tatersolid 8y ago

> The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals. Says a person who has never truly faced a grave moral test in his life. I have known many veterans of horrific combat from Okinawa through Afghanistan. They all will tell you they loved it in some bizarre, insane fashion. Yet these same people are the most trustworthy, truly moral people I have ever known. They have touched the abyss, and you and I have not. They understand things we never will.

watwut 8y ago
Saying that you love war is like love massive earthquake in habitated area. That is what people react to - they are aware of massive destruction, hunger (both soldiers and civilians), freezing babies, break of laws, abuse, thousands of families without resources, displaced, soldiers being invalides till rest of their lives. Veterans being unable to live in peace again. War means rise of authoritarian regimes and terrorist groups too. War is not just action and adrenalin. It is also rape and toddlers dying of hunger. It is ethnic massacres.
ShabbosGoy 8y ago
There’s a difference between being willing to die for certain ideals (i.e. like the Gauls during Julius Caesar’s campaigns) and loving wanton bloodshed. That’s the point I was trying to make. If you can’t understand the difference between fighting a defensive war and an aggressive war, you need a reality check. Also, I’m not sure why both my replies were flagged - I believe I was acting extremely civil.
- icebraining 8y ago
  But it's neither the willingness to die or the bloodshed itself. Thích Quảng Đức had the willingness and courage to die for a cause, but you'll have a great difficulty recruiting many to do what he did.
whatshisface 8y ago
Look, this "abyss" you're talking about can be "reached" by anybody, and I don't have to say how. It's not actually something that we want ourselves or our fellow man to do. It doesn't make you better, if any of it sticks you're worse. Going on deployment and finding something that improves you is like going to a bar/casino in Las Vegas and finding Mormonism. Sure, it can happen, but it's not what happens.