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"In the telcos, singlemode fiber is used to connect long distance switches, central offices and SLCs (subscriber loop carriers, small switches in pedestals in s

"In the telcos, singlemode fiber is used to connect long distance switches, central offices and SLCs (subscriber loop carriers, small switches in pedestals in subdivisions or office parks or in the basement of a larger building). Practically every telco's network is now fiber optics except the connection to the home." [1] Specifically, AT&T has transitioned its PSTN backbone fully to SIP, which is a form of VoIP: "AT&T will exchange SIP traffic at the access border controller layer (i.e. SBCs, more specifically Acme Packet SBCs) via IP handoff at a few "strategic locations," directly peering with a select number of Tier 1 carriers. AT&T will also provide transit and direct termination through its network and support all roaming traffic to interwork with other wireless carriers" [2] So both voice and data are going over the same fiber lines, since it's all IP (which reduces costs considerably.) We know that Room 641A was one of many QUANTUM locations, where traffic was beam-split. [3] It seems from [4], that we have confirmation that TURMOIL and INCENSER snarf up PSTN as well as IP. Since all of that was working well before 2010, and we know TEMPORA acts as a buffer for high-volume stuff (fed by the Narus machines), and voice is IP now because of SIP, I feel reasonably confident it's getting stored at some duration at the exchanges. 1. https://www.lanshack.com/fiber-optic-tutorial-network.aspx https://www.lanshack.com/fiber-optic-tutorial-network.aspx 2. http://sip-trunking.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise-voip/articles/109840-att-discusses-its-sip-peering-architecture.htm http://sip-trunking.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise-voip/articl... 3. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A 4. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-nsa-and-gchq-are.html?m=1 https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-n...

lern_too_spel 9y ago
According to Snowden's documents, the NSA isn't collecting all data out of Room 641A, just data sent to or from specific foreign targets with surveillance court orders, contradicting your claim.
- sterlind 9y ago
  Could you provide a source for your claim? You can read about TEMPORA here [1], which contradicts you: "We keep the full sessions for 3 working days and the metadata for 30." The filtering you're talking about would happen in POKERFACE, which applies after intake into TEMPORA. Basically: Backhaul -> TEMPORA (3 day buffer) -> POKERFACE (scrubs data by policy such as US citizen status) -> XKeyscore 1. http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    TEMPORA is a GCHQ system, not an NSA system, and has nothing to do with Room 641A. Additionally, it cannot record all US phone conversations as you claimed because domestic phone calls do not leave the US.
    - sterlind 9y ago
      Fair point, though we did get GCHQ's data. Room 641A was part of the WINDSTOP programs run by SSO, comprised of MUSCULAR, INCENSER and DS-300. According to [1], the NSA mass-collects VoIP partly through XKEYSCORE, FALLOUT and TURMOIL (harvested from INCENSER/DS-300/others), and PSTN through LOPERS (though it's unclear if LOPERS ingests domestic (INCENSER) data or just Europe<->Asia (DANCINGOASIS) data.) Incidentally, it's pretty impressive how much scale they handle. The DANCINGOASIS cable transfers 25Pb per day, while 3-6Pb were analyzed. And that's on a totally black op (no corporate knowledge) tap! Seriously cool. 1. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cable-tapping-program.html https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cabl...
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        > Fair point, though we did get GCHQ's data. No, the US gets some of GCHQ's intelligence reports, not all of GCHQ'S data. > According to [1], the NSA mass-collects VoIP partly through XKEYSCORE, FALLOUT and TURMOIL (harvested from INCENSER/DS-300/others), and PSTN through LOPERS (though it's unclear if LOPERS ingests domestic (INCENSER) data or just Europe<->Asia (DANCINGOASIS) data.) Do you even read your own sources? INCENSER (https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-nsa-and-gchq-are.html?m=1#incenser https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-n...) designates a cable that links Europe and Asia. None of the collection points you listed are domestic, and none of them collect comtents, only metadata. In Snowden's documents, the only contents that were collected were in regions hostile to the United States. Read https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Minimization%20Procedures%20used%20by%20NSA%20in%20Connection%20with%20FISA%20SECT%20702.pdf https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Minimization%20Procedure... for an executive summary of NSA data collection, which all of Snowden's documents agree with, once you understand what they say.

lern_too_spel 9y ago

According to Snowden's documents, the NSA isn't collecting all data out of Room 641A, just data sent to or from specific foreign targets with surveillance court orders, contradicting your claim.

sterlind 9y ago
Could you provide a source for your claim? You can read about TEMPORA here [1], which contradicts you: "We keep the full sessions for 3 working days and the metadata for 30." The filtering you're talking about would happen in POKERFACE, which applies after intake into TEMPORA. Basically: Backhaul -> TEMPORA (3 day buffer) -> POKERFACE (scrubs data by policy such as US citizen status) -> XKeyscore 1. http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  TEMPORA is a GCHQ system, not an NSA system, and has nothing to do with Room 641A. Additionally, it cannot record all US phone conversations as you claimed because domestic phone calls do not leave the US.
  - sterlind 9y ago
    Fair point, though we did get GCHQ's data. Room 641A was part of the WINDSTOP programs run by SSO, comprised of MUSCULAR, INCENSER and DS-300. According to [1], the NSA mass-collects VoIP partly through XKEYSCORE, FALLOUT and TURMOIL (harvested from INCENSER/DS-300/others), and PSTN through LOPERS (though it's unclear if LOPERS ingests domestic (INCENSER) data or just Europe<->Asia (DANCINGOASIS) data.) Incidentally, it's pretty impressive how much scale they handle. The DANCINGOASIS cable transfers 25Pb per day, while 3-6Pb were analyzed. And that's on a totally black op (no corporate knowledge) tap! Seriously cool. 1. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cable-tapping-program.html https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cabl...
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      > Fair point, though we did get GCHQ's data. No, the US gets some of GCHQ's intelligence reports, not all of GCHQ'S data. > According to [1], the NSA mass-collects VoIP partly through XKEYSCORE, FALLOUT and TURMOIL (harvested from INCENSER/DS-300/others), and PSTN through LOPERS (though it's unclear if LOPERS ingests domestic (INCENSER) data or just Europe<->Asia (DANCINGOASIS) data.) Do you even read your own sources? INCENSER (https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-nsa-and-gchq-are.html?m=1#incenser https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-n...) designates a cable that links Europe and Asia. None of the collection points you listed are domestic, and none of them collect comtents, only metadata. In Snowden's documents, the only contents that were collected were in regions hostile to the United States. Read https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Minimization%20Procedures%20used%20by%20NSA%20in%20Connection%20with%20FISA%20SECT%20702.pdf https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Minimization%20Procedure... for an executive summary of NSA data collection, which all of Snowden's documents agree with, once you understand what they say.