4 ms·

The NSA plays the "Kevin Bacon" game, where selectors target an individual, their friends, friends of friends (2 degrees of separation out, iirc.) I suspect th

The NSA plays the "Kevin Bacon" game, where selectors target an individual, their friends, friends of friends (2 degrees of separation out, iirc.) I suspect they're performing a full-take of the call contents as well, just not through the PINWALE/MARINA ingestion system. It's likely commingled with bulk traffic snarfed up by beam splitters at the telcos' NOCs, and separated on-demand from the TEMPORA buffer. At this point, I'm jaded enough to domestic mass-surveillance, I just want my money's worth. Russia successfully implanted DarkEnergy on domestic SCADA, nation-wide. Do we have that capability abroad? Prioritize foreign retailiatory offense, please! (hi @NSA if this shows up in XKS!)

lern_too_spel 9y ago
> I suspect they're performing a full-take of the call contents as well, just not through the PINWALE/MARINA ingestion system. What is the basis for this suspicion? If it were true, that's what people would have reported on from Snowden's millions of leaked documents instead of simply metadata (call data records).
- sterlind 9y ago
  "In the telcos, singlemode fiber is used to connect long distance switches, central offices and SLCs (subscriber loop carriers, small switches in pedestals in subdivisions or office parks or in the basement of a larger building). Practically every telco's network is now fiber optics except the connection to the home." [1] Specifically, AT&T has transitioned its PSTN backbone fully to SIP, which is a form of VoIP: "AT&T will exchange SIP traffic at the access border controller layer (i.e. SBCs, more specifically Acme Packet SBCs) via IP handoff at a few "strategic locations," directly peering with a select number of Tier 1 carriers. AT&T will also provide transit and direct termination through its network and support all roaming traffic to interwork with other wireless carriers" [2] So both voice and data are going over the same fiber lines, since it's all IP (which reduces costs considerably.) We know that Room 641A was one of many QUANTUM locations, where traffic was beam-split. [3] It seems from [4], that we have confirmation that TURMOIL and INCENSER snarf up PSTN as well as IP. Since all of that was working well before 2010, and we know TEMPORA acts as a buffer for high-volume stuff (fed by the Narus machines), and voice is IP now because of SIP, I feel reasonably confident it's getting stored at some duration at the exchanges. 1. https://www.lanshack.com/fiber-optic-tutorial-network.aspx https://www.lanshack.com/fiber-optic-tutorial-network.aspx 2. http://sip-trunking.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise-voip/articles/109840-att-discusses-its-sip-peering-architecture.htm http://sip-trunking.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise-voip/articl... 3. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A 4. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-nsa-and-gchq-are.html?m=1 https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-n...
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    According to Snowden's documents, the NSA isn't collecting all data out of Room 641A, just data sent to or from specific foreign targets with surveillance court orders, contradicting your claim.
    - sterlind 9y ago
      Could you provide a source for your claim? You can read about TEMPORA here [1], which contradicts you: "We keep the full sessions for 3 working days and the metadata for 30." The filtering you're talking about would happen in POKERFACE, which applies after intake into TEMPORA. Basically: Backhaul -> TEMPORA (3 day buffer) -> POKERFACE (scrubs data by policy such as US citizen status) -> XKeyscore 1. http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        TEMPORA is a GCHQ system, not an NSA system, and has nothing to do with Room 641A. Additionally, it cannot record all US phone conversations as you claimed because domestic phone calls do not leave the US.
        sterlind 9y ago
        Fair point, though we did get GCHQ's data. Room 641A was part of the WINDSTOP programs run by SSO, comprised of MUSCULAR, INCENSER and DS-300. According to [1], the NSA mass-collects VoIP partly through XKEYSCORE, FALLOUT and TURMOIL (harvested from INCENSER/DS-300/others), and PSTN through LOPERS (though it's unclear if LOPERS ingests domestic (INCENSER) data or just Europe<->Asia (DANCINGOASIS) data.) Incidentally, it's pretty impressive how much scale they handle. The DANCINGOASIS cable transfers 25Pb per day, while 3-6Pb were analyzed. And that's on a totally black op (no corporate knowledge) tap! Seriously cool. 1. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cable-tapping-program.html https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cabl...
- Clubber 9y ago
  Here's a decent review. The sad that as time passes, the more normal this will seem to everybody. https://www.propublica.org/article/nsa-data-collection-faq https://www.propublica.org/article/nsa-data-collection-faq
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    This is both old (they no longer get all metadata, just the 500 million requested as described in today's article) and contradicts GGP's claim.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      I guess we'll just have to wait for another whistleblower to confirm they are lying about it again. At least it isn't "wittingly."
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        Except they never lied about that according to Snowden's documents. They never recorded all domestic phone calls.
        Clubber 9y ago
        https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4521220/james-clapper-wittingly https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4521220/james-clapper-witting...
        lern_too_spel 9y ago
        1. James Clapper is not in the NSA. 2. The NSA never recorded all domestic phone calls, and there is no evidence that they ever did, so neither Clapper nor the NSA lied about that.
        sterlind 9y ago
        I've been citing a lot of sources here. Can you clearly cite your assertion? Over the past few weeks and several threads, you've consistently asserted that NSA/CIA don't bulk-collect Americans' data, with no citing proof. Did you fill out an SF-86 or something?
nasredin 9y ago
IIRC it's 3 Kevin Bacons (degree of seperation), so almost everybody. See the research on Six Degrees...

lern_too_spel 9y ago

> I suspect they're performing a full-take of the call contents as well, just not through the PINWALE/MARINA ingestion system. What is the basis for this suspicion? If it were true, that's what people would have reported on from Snowden's millions of leaked documents instead of simply metadata (call data records).

sterlind 9y ago
"In the telcos, singlemode fiber is used to connect long distance switches, central offices and SLCs (subscriber loop carriers, small switches in pedestals in subdivisions or office parks or in the basement of a larger building). Practically every telco's network is now fiber optics except the connection to the home." [1] Specifically, AT&T has transitioned its PSTN backbone fully to SIP, which is a form of VoIP: "AT&T will exchange SIP traffic at the access border controller layer (i.e. SBCs, more specifically Acme Packet SBCs) via IP handoff at a few "strategic locations," directly peering with a select number of Tier 1 carriers. AT&T will also provide transit and direct termination through its network and support all roaming traffic to interwork with other wireless carriers" [2] So both voice and data are going over the same fiber lines, since it's all IP (which reduces costs considerably.) We know that Room 641A was one of many QUANTUM locations, where traffic was beam-split. [3] It seems from [4], that we have confirmation that TURMOIL and INCENSER snarf up PSTN as well as IP. Since all of that was working well before 2010, and we know TEMPORA acts as a buffer for high-volume stuff (fed by the Narus machines), and voice is IP now because of SIP, I feel reasonably confident it's getting stored at some duration at the exchanges. 1. https://www.lanshack.com/fiber-optic-tutorial-network.aspx https://www.lanshack.com/fiber-optic-tutorial-network.aspx 2. http://sip-trunking.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise-voip/articles/109840-att-discusses-its-sip-peering-architecture.htm http://sip-trunking.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise-voip/articl... 3. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A 4. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-nsa-and-gchq-are.html?m=1 https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/11/incenser-or-how-n...
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  According to Snowden's documents, the NSA isn't collecting all data out of Room 641A, just data sent to or from specific foreign targets with surveillance court orders, contradicting your claim.
  - sterlind 9y ago
    Could you provide a source for your claim? You can read about TEMPORA here [1], which contradicts you: "We keep the full sessions for 3 working days and the metadata for 30." The filtering you're talking about would happen in POKERFACE, which applies after intake into TEMPORA. Basically: Backhaul -> TEMPORA (3 day buffer) -> POKERFACE (scrubs data by policy such as US citizen status) -> XKeyscore 1. http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-34103.pdf
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      TEMPORA is a GCHQ system, not an NSA system, and has nothing to do with Room 641A. Additionally, it cannot record all US phone conversations as you claimed because domestic phone calls do not leave the US.
      - sterlind 9y ago
        Fair point, though we did get GCHQ's data. Room 641A was part of the WINDSTOP programs run by SSO, comprised of MUSCULAR, INCENSER and DS-300. According to [1], the NSA mass-collects VoIP partly through XKEYSCORE, FALLOUT and TURMOIL (harvested from INCENSER/DS-300/others), and PSTN through LOPERS (though it's unclear if LOPERS ingests domestic (INCENSER) data or just Europe<->Asia (DANCINGOASIS) data.) Incidentally, it's pretty impressive how much scale they handle. The DANCINGOASIS cable transfers 25Pb per day, while 3-6Pb were analyzed. And that's on a totally black op (no corporate knowledge) tap! Seriously cool. 1. https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cable-tapping-program.html https://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2014/05/nsas-largest-cabl...
Clubber 9y ago
Here's a decent review. The sad that as time passes, the more normal this will seem to everybody. https://www.propublica.org/article/nsa-data-collection-faq https://www.propublica.org/article/nsa-data-collection-faq
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  This is both old (they no longer get all metadata, just the 500 million requested as described in today's article) and contradicts GGP's claim.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    I guess we'll just have to wait for another whistleblower to confirm they are lying about it again. At least it isn't "wittingly."
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      Except they never lied about that according to Snowden's documents. They never recorded all domestic phone calls.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4521220/james-clapper-wittingly https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4521220/james-clapper-witting...
        lern_too_spel 9y ago
        1. James Clapper is not in the NSA. 2. The NSA never recorded all domestic phone calls, and there is no evidence that they ever did, so neither Clapper nor the NSA lied about that.
        sterlind 9y ago
        I've been citing a lot of sources here. Can you clearly cite your assertion? Over the past few weeks and several threads, you've consistently asserted that NSA/CIA don't bulk-collect Americans' data, with no citing proof. Did you fill out an SF-86 or something?

nasredin 9y ago

IIRC it's 3 Kevin Bacons (degree of seperation), so almost everybody. See the research on Six Degrees...