10 ms·

> who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. Where does this perception come from? Canada has stricter immigration rules than the USA

by ng12 9y ago

> who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. Where does this perception come from? Canada has stricter immigration rules than the USA. EDIT: Specifically what I'm talking about is that Canada only allows in immigrants who are economically desirable and speak English or French.

josephjrobison 9y ago
Kinda unrelated to immigration, but I've heard Canadian border patrol is actually more harsh than American border control. Anyone with experience that can verify?
- Jare 9y ago
  During my years in Vancouver last decade, crossing the border to visit my brother in Seattle was such a stark contrast... Entering the USA I always felt like I was this close to being kicked back. From the faces, tones of voice, type of questions to the general atmosphere, all seemed intended to make me feel dominated. Crossing back to Canada was always fast and efficient, half the times the guards would even joke in good taste. I don't think it was the difference between being a visitor (to the USA) vs a resident (in Canada), because the couple of times I went abroad while I was a resident in the USA were very similar.
- reaperducer 9y ago
  Back when you only needed a drivers license to cross the border, the Canadian border person looked at my Texas driver's license and said, "Texas, huh. Where are your guns?" That would be considered unacceptable and unprofessional at U.S. border control.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    Hah, I had exactly the same experience crossing into Ontario in either 2003 or 2006. We had six people and a ton of luggage and they seemed to be seriously considering searching all our bags just because of Texas IDs. :|
  - siidooloo 9y ago
    They were probably trying to slip you up and see if you would say in the trunk or something.
  - querulous 9y ago
    a us border guard once asked me if i hated america because i hadn't visited it in nearly 18 months
    - CNJ7654 9y ago
      Well, do you?
- Symbiote 9y ago
  (British passport.) Straightforward business trips for both countries for me, but Canada is a little more casual than average, but otherwise uninteresting. The officials smile, ask a straightforward question ("where are you staying?"), and stamp the passport ("enjoy your stay in Canada"). In the US, I feel like I'm being interrogated. "You don't look like a software developer" "who is paying for this trip?" and lots of scowling.
  - speeq 9y ago
    That's funny because I had the exact opposite experience. I think it just depends on the mood of the border officer.
- refurb 9y ago
  Dual citizen, crossed the border probably 50+ times both by air and land. The only two times I've been aggressively grilled including accusations of smuggling and personal questions that were intrusive were coming back into Canada. Even when I only had a green card, most of the time the US CBP just said "welcome home" and waved me on.
- yarrel 9y ago
  Yep, far worse. They were very nice when I activated my PR card though.
- megaman22 9y ago
  I've always faced much tougher scrutiny coming back across to the American side. Had lots of friends and family in Quebec, and we went fishing and hunting up there multiple trips a year, usually with a truck loaded for a week or two of being out in the woods. Even bringing firearms across, you just step inside the office and fill out the paperwork. Usually when we told them that we only had the legal limit of one case of beer or bottle of wine per adult, they'd joke and ask us if we were going to get thirsty while we were fishing... The one thing that is a little sticky is that you can't get across the border if you have had a DUI within so many years. An issue for some of my dad's hunting buddies. The US side coming back was always a bigger pain in the neck. Part of that is because of the way Border Patrol rotates their agents. You could always tell the ones that had recently rotated from the Mexican border because they were twitchy and kept a hand on their holster at all times. I'm sure it's a hard habit to break, but not really appropriate at a backwater crossing in Northern Maine where 95% of the traffic is log trucks and local Canadians coming over to fill up their gas tanks or pick up things they've ordered online.
- ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago
  I have found this to be the case with the customs. This is mostly because Canada’s custom thresholds are absurdly low in comparison to other countries. Both when entering the country but also when posting something in, see: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/canadas-customs-threshold-out-of-step-and-out-of-pocket/article30560441/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-comme...
- perardi 9y ago
  I am constantly hopping back and forth between Chicago and Toronto to be with my boyfriend. I have never been seriously questioned on either side, though I think I get a slight bit more side eye on the U.S. side when I mention the same-sex partner thing. But I could be projecting.
Jare 9y ago
I am an European that has immigrated to both countries at different points, and my experience couldn't be farther from what you describe. And my stint in the USA was 20 years ago, which was the wild west compared to today. What do you mean by stricter here?
- ng12 9y ago
  If it was easy for you it's because you're economically desirable and culturally compatible. Canada only accepts immigrants who have a high probability of financial success and "integration", along with a limited number of refugees who have sponsors. The USA on the other hand has a relatively open employer-backed system in addition to the wealth/education-agnostic quota system.
  - Jare 9y ago
    I don't know, one of my euro immigrant friends in Vancouver was a window cleaner. IIRC she basically showed up at the border with some education certificate (some non-fancy arts degree), her intent to make a living and proof she could sustain herself for a few months; definitely not sponsored by a tech company or anything like that. A few years later she was a citizen. OTOH I know two very capable (although not "rockstar" level) tech people who have lost the H1B lottery several years in a row. In that sense the USA seems more random, but not more open. But I guess we're just using different criteria.
    - kingofhdds 9y ago
      I'm pretty sure there are some important details missed in your story, because you either don't know them, or don't understand why they are important. My European, but non-EU, friend is a software engineer with certified knowledge of both En, and Fr, clean records, and all that stuff, decided to go to Canada for some not particularly economically rational reasons (like love of northern nature). This year it's going to be the 5th year since he applied to Can immigration service, and he still waits for a decision. Meanwhile, a number of his coworkers landed in US with quite poor English, and worse qualifications.
reaperducer 9y ago
Most countries do. But the groupthink is that the USA is hostile to immigrants. Which doesn't explain all the immigrants (legal and otherwise). There's also the cliche (spread by the internet and political groups) that conservative/Republicans/etc... are against all immigration. This is 90% incorrect. I worked as support staff during a conference in Seattle of conservative business leaders around 2010. Their #1 topic of discussion was how to get more people into the country because they couldn't find enough workers with the right skills domestically. And no, it wasn't the tech sector that was hurting the most. Apparently the problem the conservatives have isn't immigration as an umbrella policy. It's legal versus illegal methods (though some of the speakers advocated for both). Kind of eye-opening. I no longer believe the regurgitated talking points from either party.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > But the groupthink is that the USA is hostile to immigrants. Which doesn't explain all the immigrants (legal and otherwise). I don't know what groupthink you are talking about, but there is a wife perception that the US has recently become hostile toward immigrants. Which is reflected not only in fuzzy attitudes, but concrete policy, and it does explain changes in immigration, both legal and otherwise. > There's also the cliche (spread by the internet and political groups) that conservative/Republicans/etc... are against all immigration. This is 90% incorrect It would be more accurate to say that there is a wide (and accurate) perception that conservatives are generally more negatively inclined to immigration, and that this is generally correct on balance (though obviously not a reliable guide to individual attitudes.) > Apparently the problem the conservatives have isn't immigration as an umbrella policy. It's legal versus illegal methods That's what they usually say, but they also usually oppose policy which would make legal immigration easier and relieve pressure that creates illegal immigration, and frequently support policies to restrict legal immigration. And it's not just 10% of conservatives supporting this kind of policy. This reveals that the rhetoric that it it is only illegal immigration that is the concern is not reflective of the actual concerns.
  - pm90 9y ago
    > That's what they usually say, but they also usually oppose policy which would make legal immigration easier and relieve pressure that creates illegal immigration, and frequently support policies to restrict legal immigration. And it's not just 10% of conservatives supporting this kind of policy. Look, I'm a liberal but I will call out the Dems when I need to. Most of the reforms to legal immigration have always been a sort of addendum, or a two-part deal with relief for the illegal immigrants included in them. Democrats haven't proposed a bill which purely targets legal immigration. So its a little unfair to say that conservatives are opposed to all kinds of Immigration.
whack 9y ago
Given the current H1B lottery, even someone with excellent credentials will most likely be denied the visa, purely due to random chance. Also, even if you get the H1B and apply for Permanent Residency, the wait time can be obscenely long depending on where you were born. If you were born in China, you'll have to wait for 6+ years. If you were born in India, you'll have to wait for 12+ years. Ironically enough, if you're a not-very-qualified applicant, you'll likely have a easier time applying here in USA. The Canadian system might be more stringent, but rolls out the red carpet for those who are truly qualified, and in greater numbers too. The American system is the exact opposite.
- akshat_h 9y ago
  To add to the above post. For people born in India the wait time is estimated to be more than 20+ years, since the queue is going to get longer and longer, and there are only fixed number of people who leave the queue every year. Unless you are on EB1, it is better to basically forget about getting a green card. Talking to my friends from India, the options are: 1) Do a PhD and hope to produce original, well cited research that qualifies you for EB1. 2)Similar to above, but if you are in a research team and can get good papers out that qualify you for EB1. 3)Wait and hope for promotions that qualify you for EB1. 4)Move back to India after a couple of years. 5)Try to move to Europe or Canada. Everyone is kinda fuzzy on this since no one really has clear idea of immigration laws in other countries. 6)Get enough money from some IPO to pay for investment based green card and hope for the best. This is if you currently qualify for EB2 i.e 5 or more years experience or a Masters from US. I don't even know what is the condition for people in EB3. As one of my friend put it memorably, there is a person whose parent's haven't even met, that will get a green card faster than me, if born anywhere but India, China, Mexico and Philippines. I know, barring a recession, I'll be in US for the next couple of years, but after getting a family, I think my tolerance for having my residence in the country coupled with my job would drop and I'll look and see if one of the above option works for me. Plus ageism in tech is something I fear as well. I would love to settle here, but barring a law change, it is right now impossible for me. EDIT: Separate line numbers for the numbers points.
  - pm90 9y ago
nerfhammer 9y ago
Trump decides to excite his base and draw attention to himself by threatening to or actually banning immigrants from your country this week difficult to plan for the future where this is a possibility
- ng12 9y ago
  Trump's actual rhetoric revolves around tougher controls on immigrant backgrounds and cracking down on those who immigrate illegally, neither of which policies are any less strict in Canada.
  - nerfhammer 9y ago
    and people from Iran or Syria?
    - ng12 9y ago
      https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/05/01/iranian-immigration-applicants-frustrated-by-security-clearance-delays.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/05/01/iranian-immigrat... Maybe Trump's mistake is being vocal about it while Canada maintains plausible deniability.
      - slavik81 9y ago
        I feel like I'm not getting the whole story here. You don't need a security clearance to become a permanent resident.
        aban 9y ago
        Security clearance not as in the kind that you need to work government jobs. Security clearance as in "basic" background checks.
      - sheepmullet 9y ago
        Spot on! The Obama admin did the same thing. Sure it was technically possible to get a visa but in reality it was impractical and deliberately so.
simonbarker87 9y ago
My wife and I both have PhDs in electronics (her’s was 50% neuroscience) I have run a successful business for 7 years and she works for a high end car manufacturer in electrical design as a manager, both are native UK. We can get a permenant residency Canada visa straight off the bat without a job offer (quicker with a job offer though granted). We can’t work out how to get a US visa for love nor money and have basically given up thinking about it. Canada certainly seems easier from where we are.
- ng12 9y ago
  Yeah, that's the point. If you're wealthy, highly employable, and culturally compatible it's easy. Everyone else gets a big fat "no". Trump's gotten flack for suggesting the USA do the same.
  - simonbarker87 9y ago
    > If you're wealthy, highly employable, and culturally compatible it's easy. Everyone else gets a big fat "no". From what I can US the US still says no even if you meet the above criteria.
    - ng12 9y ago
      In the US work-related visas have no cultural or language requirements. In addition, the USA has an immigration lottery which has no education, wealth, or employability requirements, especially for people coming from under-represented countries.
- cylinder 9y ago
  L1A New Office via your company? Start a US business with a partner so you own just 50% then petition for an H1B for yourself every year until you win. E1 or E2? You have a fair bit of options if you really want it and are willing to jump through hoops.

by ng12 9y ago

josephjrobison 9y ago

Kinda unrelated to immigration, but I've heard Canadian border patrol is actually more harsh than American border control. Anyone with experience that can verify?

Jare 9y ago
During my years in Vancouver last decade, crossing the border to visit my brother in Seattle was such a stark contrast... Entering the USA I always felt like I was this close to being kicked back. From the faces, tones of voice, type of questions to the general atmosphere, all seemed intended to make me feel dominated. Crossing back to Canada was always fast and efficient, half the times the guards would even joke in good taste. I don't think it was the difference between being a visitor (to the USA) vs a resident (in Canada), because the couple of times I went abroad while I was a resident in the USA were very similar.
reaperducer 9y ago
Back when you only needed a drivers license to cross the border, the Canadian border person looked at my Texas driver's license and said, "Texas, huh. Where are your guns?" That would be considered unacceptable and unprofessional at U.S. border control.
- majormajor 9y ago
  Hah, I had exactly the same experience crossing into Ontario in either 2003 or 2006. We had six people and a ton of luggage and they seemed to be seriously considering searching all our bags just because of Texas IDs. :|
- siidooloo 9y ago
  They were probably trying to slip you up and see if you would say in the trunk or something.
- querulous 9y ago
  a us border guard once asked me if i hated america because i hadn't visited it in nearly 18 months
  - CNJ7654 9y ago
    Well, do you?
Symbiote 9y ago
(British passport.) Straightforward business trips for both countries for me, but Canada is a little more casual than average, but otherwise uninteresting. The officials smile, ask a straightforward question ("where are you staying?"), and stamp the passport ("enjoy your stay in Canada"). In the US, I feel like I'm being interrogated. "You don't look like a software developer" "who is paying for this trip?" and lots of scowling.
- speeq 9y ago
  That's funny because I had the exact opposite experience. I think it just depends on the mood of the border officer.
refurb 9y ago
Dual citizen, crossed the border probably 50+ times both by air and land. The only two times I've been aggressively grilled including accusations of smuggling and personal questions that were intrusive were coming back into Canada. Even when I only had a green card, most of the time the US CBP just said "welcome home" and waved me on.
yarrel 9y ago
Yep, far worse. They were very nice when I activated my PR card though.
megaman22 9y ago
I've always faced much tougher scrutiny coming back across to the American side. Had lots of friends and family in Quebec, and we went fishing and hunting up there multiple trips a year, usually with a truck loaded for a week or two of being out in the woods. Even bringing firearms across, you just step inside the office and fill out the paperwork. Usually when we told them that we only had the legal limit of one case of beer or bottle of wine per adult, they'd joke and ask us if we were going to get thirsty while we were fishing... The one thing that is a little sticky is that you can't get across the border if you have had a DUI within so many years. An issue for some of my dad's hunting buddies. The US side coming back was always a bigger pain in the neck. Part of that is because of the way Border Patrol rotates their agents. You could always tell the ones that had recently rotated from the Mexican border because they were twitchy and kept a hand on their holster at all times. I'm sure it's a hard habit to break, but not really appropriate at a backwater crossing in Northern Maine where 95% of the traffic is log trucks and local Canadians coming over to fill up their gas tanks or pick up things they've ordered online.
ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago
I have found this to be the case with the customs. This is mostly because Canada’s custom thresholds are absurdly low in comparison to other countries. Both when entering the country but also when posting something in, see: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/canadas-customs-threshold-out-of-step-and-out-of-pocket/article30560441/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-comme...
perardi 9y ago
I am constantly hopping back and forth between Chicago and Toronto to be with my boyfriend. I have never been seriously questioned on either side, though I think I get a slight bit more side eye on the U.S. side when I mention the same-sex partner thing. But I could be projecting.

Jare 9y ago

I am an European that has immigrated to both countries at different points, and my experience couldn't be farther from what you describe. And my stint in the USA was 20 years ago, which was the wild west compared to today. What do you mean by stricter here?

ng12 9y ago
If it was easy for you it's because you're economically desirable and culturally compatible. Canada only accepts immigrants who have a high probability of financial success and "integration", along with a limited number of refugees who have sponsors. The USA on the other hand has a relatively open employer-backed system in addition to the wealth/education-agnostic quota system.
- Jare 9y ago
  I don't know, one of my euro immigrant friends in Vancouver was a window cleaner. IIRC she basically showed up at the border with some education certificate (some non-fancy arts degree), her intent to make a living and proof she could sustain herself for a few months; definitely not sponsored by a tech company or anything like that. A few years later she was a citizen. OTOH I know two very capable (although not "rockstar" level) tech people who have lost the H1B lottery several years in a row. In that sense the USA seems more random, but not more open. But I guess we're just using different criteria.
  - kingofhdds 9y ago
    I'm pretty sure there are some important details missed in your story, because you either don't know them, or don't understand why they are important. My European, but non-EU, friend is a software engineer with certified knowledge of both En, and Fr, clean records, and all that stuff, decided to go to Canada for some not particularly economically rational reasons (like love of northern nature). This year it's going to be the 5th year since he applied to Can immigration service, and he still waits for a decision. Meanwhile, a number of his coworkers landed in US with quite poor English, and worse qualifications.

reaperducer 9y ago

Most countries do. But the groupthink is that the USA is hostile to immigrants. Which doesn't explain all the immigrants (legal and otherwise). There's also the cliche (spread by the internet and political groups) that conservative/Republicans/etc... are against all immigration. This is 90% incorrect. I worked as support staff during a conference in Seattle of conservative business leaders around 2010. Their #1 topic of discussion was how to get more people into the country because they couldn't find enough workers with the right skills domestically. And no, it wasn't the tech sector that was hurting the most. Apparently the problem the conservatives have isn't immigration as an umbrella policy. It's legal versus illegal methods (though some of the speakers advocated for both). Kind of eye-opening. I no longer believe the regurgitated talking points from either party.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> But the groupthink is that the USA is hostile to immigrants. Which doesn't explain all the immigrants (legal and otherwise). I don't know what groupthink you are talking about, but there is a wife perception that the US has recently become hostile toward immigrants. Which is reflected not only in fuzzy attitudes, but concrete policy, and it does explain changes in immigration, both legal and otherwise. > There's also the cliche (spread by the internet and political groups) that conservative/Republicans/etc... are against all immigration. This is 90% incorrect It would be more accurate to say that there is a wide (and accurate) perception that conservatives are generally more negatively inclined to immigration, and that this is generally correct on balance (though obviously not a reliable guide to individual attitudes.) > Apparently the problem the conservatives have isn't immigration as an umbrella policy. It's legal versus illegal methods That's what they usually say, but they also usually oppose policy which would make legal immigration easier and relieve pressure that creates illegal immigration, and frequently support policies to restrict legal immigration. And it's not just 10% of conservatives supporting this kind of policy. This reveals that the rhetoric that it it is only illegal immigration that is the concern is not reflective of the actual concerns.
- pm90 9y ago
  > That's what they usually say, but they also usually oppose policy which would make legal immigration easier and relieve pressure that creates illegal immigration, and frequently support policies to restrict legal immigration. And it's not just 10% of conservatives supporting this kind of policy. Look, I'm a liberal but I will call out the Dems when I need to. Most of the reforms to legal immigration have always been a sort of addendum, or a two-part deal with relief for the illegal immigrants included in them. Democrats haven't proposed a bill which purely targets legal immigration. So its a little unfair to say that conservatives are opposed to all kinds of Immigration.

whack 9y ago

Given the current H1B lottery, even someone with excellent credentials will most likely be denied the visa, purely due to random chance. Also, even if you get the H1B and apply for Permanent Residency, the wait time can be obscenely long depending on where you were born. If you were born in China, you'll have to wait for 6+ years. If you were born in India, you'll have to wait for 12+ years. Ironically enough, if you're a not-very-qualified applicant, you'll likely have a easier time applying here in USA. The Canadian system might be more stringent, but rolls out the red carpet for those who are truly qualified, and in greater numbers too. The American system is the exact opposite.

akshat_h 9y ago
To add to the above post. For people born in India the wait time is estimated to be more than 20+ years, since the queue is going to get longer and longer, and there are only fixed number of people who leave the queue every year. Unless you are on EB1, it is better to basically forget about getting a green card. Talking to my friends from India, the options are: 1) Do a PhD and hope to produce original, well cited research that qualifies you for EB1. 2)Similar to above, but if you are in a research team and can get good papers out that qualify you for EB1. 3)Wait and hope for promotions that qualify you for EB1. 4)Move back to India after a couple of years. 5)Try to move to Europe or Canada. Everyone is kinda fuzzy on this since no one really has clear idea of immigration laws in other countries. 6)Get enough money from some IPO to pay for investment based green card and hope for the best. This is if you currently qualify for EB2 i.e 5 or more years experience or a Masters from US. I don't even know what is the condition for people in EB3. As one of my friend put it memorably, there is a person whose parent's haven't even met, that will get a green card faster than me, if born anywhere but India, China, Mexico and Philippines. I know, barring a recession, I'll be in US for the next couple of years, but after getting a family, I think my tolerance for having my residence in the country coupled with my job would drop and I'll look and see if one of the above option works for me. Plus ageism in tech is something I fear as well. I would love to settle here, but barring a law change, it is right now impossible for me. EDIT: Separate line numbers for the numbers points.
- pm90 9y ago

nerfhammer 9y ago

Trump decides to excite his base and draw attention to himself by threatening to or actually banning immigrants from your country this week difficult to plan for the future where this is a possibility

ng12 9y ago
Trump's actual rhetoric revolves around tougher controls on immigrant backgrounds and cracking down on those who immigrate illegally, neither of which policies are any less strict in Canada.
- nerfhammer 9y ago
  and people from Iran or Syria?
  - ng12 9y ago
    https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/05/01/iranian-immigration-applicants-frustrated-by-security-clearance-delays.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/05/01/iranian-immigrat... Maybe Trump's mistake is being vocal about it while Canada maintains plausible deniability.
    - slavik81 9y ago
      I feel like I'm not getting the whole story here. You don't need a security clearance to become a permanent resident.
      - aban 9y ago
        Security clearance not as in the kind that you need to work government jobs. Security clearance as in "basic" background checks.
    - sheepmullet 9y ago
      Spot on! The Obama admin did the same thing. Sure it was technically possible to get a visa but in reality it was impractical and deliberately so.

simonbarker87 9y ago

My wife and I both have PhDs in electronics (her’s was 50% neuroscience) I have run a successful business for 7 years and she works for a high end car manufacturer in electrical design as a manager, both are native UK. We can get a permenant residency Canada visa straight off the bat without a job offer (quicker with a job offer though granted). We can’t work out how to get a US visa for love nor money and have basically given up thinking about it. Canada certainly seems easier from where we are.

ng12 9y ago
Yeah, that's the point. If you're wealthy, highly employable, and culturally compatible it's easy. Everyone else gets a big fat "no". Trump's gotten flack for suggesting the USA do the same.
- simonbarker87 9y ago
  > If you're wealthy, highly employable, and culturally compatible it's easy. Everyone else gets a big fat "no". From what I can US the US still says no even if you meet the above criteria.
  - ng12 9y ago
    In the US work-related visas have no cultural or language requirements. In addition, the USA has an immigration lottery which has no education, wealth, or employability requirements, especially for people coming from under-represented countries.
cylinder 9y ago
L1A New Office via your company? Start a US business with a partner so you own just 50% then petition for an H1B for yourself every year until you win. E1 or E2? You have a fair bit of options if you really want it and are willing to jump through hoops.