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Doesn't sound too bad to me. They raised $1.7 billion. "Added to that, the fact that Telegram isn’t in control of the flow of capital at this early stage doesn

Doesn't sound too bad to me. They raised $1.7 billion. "Added to that, the fact that Telegram isn’t in control of the flow of capital at this early stage doesn’t look good." I don't understand that, why would they not have access to the capital which they raised? Didn't they sell the tokens? What a shit article, could at least provide some details.

lacker 9y ago
Yeah the article describes this a bit confusingly. They do have access to the capital they raised, they just don't have control over the subsequent flow of capital in and out of these tokens. For example: One source said an early investor who acquired a tranche of tokens at a price of $0.37 is actively seeking to sell for $1.30 — potentially a 3.5-fold increase for a token that hasn’t left the gate yet. That sort of flipping (or "capital flow") isn't typically possible in startup fundraising because investors are restricted from selling their stock. For a normal startup it would look bad if your investors wanted to sell their stock immediately because they would be signaling a lack of confidence in the future. For this Telegram ICO, it isn't quite the same, but some people might look at it as a bad sign in a similar way. To me, it is hard to tell what the underlying basis for any valuation of this ICO is.
- gowld 9y ago
  If investors sell at a loss, that shows a lack of confidence. Selling at a gain means the investor thinks the stock is plateauing (not growing as quickly as before), not necessarily bad if the stock already has a $billion valuation and other investors are looking for a lower return (lower risk?) investment than the the original investor. An ICO is more like an IPO than a seed round, in terms of who buys in. And early investors / insiders quite commonly sell fine stocks shortly after IPO. None of this is a comment on the quality of Telegram in particular.
  - cwkoss 9y ago
    Could also mean that investors are covering cost, but still keeping part of their position. Ex buy at 0.30. Price goes to 1.2, sell 25% of holdings to cover cost, but let profit ride. As the saying goes, "Can't lose money by taking profits".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
khazhoux 9y ago
> Doesn't sound too bad to me. They raised $1.7 billion. Explain please. Does this literally mean Telegraph has $1.7b of cash in their bank account now?
- starshadowx2 9y ago
  Yes, they've sold $1.7b worth of Gram tokens.
  - nwah1 9y ago
    Are you sure? Usually these ICO numbers are calculated based on the market cap of all the coins, much of which would not be owned by Telegram, and would've been sold off at a lower price than the current price. Also, this market cap is not based on any kind of value investing principles or anything, just the current spot price of these coins. If too many people tried to cash out at the same time, the spot prices would drop like a rock.
    - starshadowx2 9y ago
      I'm not sure if you're talking about the market after the presale or not. All the tokens have so far been created and sold directly by Telegram. They have sold $1.7b worth of tokens to investors. It doesn't matter what those investors now sell the tokens at, and even if price drops to 0 Telegram still got the money from the investors.
    - coolspot 9y ago
      There are two SEC forms $850M each: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997991
      - ordinaryradical 9y ago
        But was this 850 M from crypto people diversifying their portfolio (for example BTC for TON?) The filing says USD but does that mean the transactions were carried out in USD or worth 850 M at the time according to the coin value of the exchanged currencies? I think that’s what we’re trying to zero in on. One is serious IPO money, the other is a clever financing solution that may be entirely inflated by speculation not to mention subject to extraordinary volatilty.

lacker 9y ago

Yeah the article describes this a bit confusingly. They do have access to the capital they raised, they just don't have control over the subsequent flow of capital in and out of these tokens. For example: One source said an early investor who acquired a tranche of tokens at a price of $0.37 is actively seeking to sell for $1.30 — potentially a 3.5-fold increase for a token that hasn’t left the gate yet. That sort of flipping (or "capital flow") isn't typically possible in startup fundraising because investors are restricted from selling their stock. For a normal startup it would look bad if your investors wanted to sell their stock immediately because they would be signaling a lack of confidence in the future. For this Telegram ICO, it isn't quite the same, but some people might look at it as a bad sign in a similar way. To me, it is hard to tell what the underlying basis for any valuation of this ICO is.

gowld 9y ago
If investors sell at a loss, that shows a lack of confidence. Selling at a gain means the investor thinks the stock is plateauing (not growing as quickly as before), not necessarily bad if the stock already has a $billion valuation and other investors are looking for a lower return (lower risk?) investment than the the original investor. An ICO is more like an IPO than a seed round, in terms of who buys in. And early investors / insiders quite commonly sell fine stocks shortly after IPO. None of this is a comment on the quality of Telegram in particular.
- cwkoss 9y ago
  Could also mean that investors are covering cost, but still keeping part of their position. Ex buy at 0.30. Price goes to 1.2, sell 25% of holdings to cover cost, but let profit ride. As the saying goes, "Can't lose money by taking profits".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

khazhoux 9y ago

> Doesn't sound too bad to me. They raised $1.7 billion. Explain please. Does this literally mean Telegraph has $1.7b of cash in their bank account now?

starshadowx2 9y ago
Yes, they've sold $1.7b worth of Gram tokens.
- nwah1 9y ago
  Are you sure? Usually these ICO numbers are calculated based on the market cap of all the coins, much of which would not be owned by Telegram, and would've been sold off at a lower price than the current price. Also, this market cap is not based on any kind of value investing principles or anything, just the current spot price of these coins. If too many people tried to cash out at the same time, the spot prices would drop like a rock.
  - starshadowx2 9y ago
    I'm not sure if you're talking about the market after the presale or not. All the tokens have so far been created and sold directly by Telegram. They have sold $1.7b worth of tokens to investors. It doesn't matter what those investors now sell the tokens at, and even if price drops to 0 Telegram still got the money from the investors.
  - coolspot 9y ago
    There are two SEC forms $850M each: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997991
    - ordinaryradical 9y ago
      But was this 850 M from crypto people diversifying their portfolio (for example BTC for TON?) The filing says USD but does that mean the transactions were carried out in USD or worth 850 M at the time according to the coin value of the exchanged currencies? I think that’s what we’re trying to zero in on. One is serious IPO money, the other is a clever financing solution that may be entirely inflated by speculation not to mention subject to extraordinary volatilty.