4 ms·

Fair enough, but just to be clear, these were the first five employees (including my cofounder and me). Now, some of us still work those hours, and some don't.

by aberman 16y ago

Fair enough, but just to be clear, these were the first five employees (including my cofounder and me). Now, some of us still work those hours, and some don't. We don't "monitor" hours or tell people they can't take time off or leave early - and a lot of people take full liberty to do so (and they should). Some of our employees have kids and leave earlier, put the kids to bed, and hop on IRC to help out if/when they can. I am TOTALLY aware that as we hire more, the avg hours worked by the avg employee will decrease over time. I think that's normal. I imagine that the early employees will always tend to work a little longer - or at least they should.

loewenskind 16y ago
You need to take some time off and go look at modern research on productivity. You're not gaining anything with these hours. You feel like you're getting more done, but the science simply doesn't support that this is what's happening.
- mmt 16y ago
  Thank you. This is the most succinct and (IMO) valid criticism of the long-hours apologias. It's not just a question of no additional productivity, but one of actual damage. My own role[1] doubly exposes me to these risks. As I might actually handle hardware, the increased risk of "industrial" injury one exposure, and, of course, being on call is the other. Even with the knowledge and acceptance of such studies, there's the difficult task of self-discipline. The temptation to stay just a little longer, to get one last thing working, is strong on its own, but, combined with peer pressure, is nearly irresistible. This is why it's so important that founders, managers, or anyone with a voice of authority, make[3] this an explicit part of the culture. [1] System administration, which, for a startup at an early enough stage means anything from facilities/rack'n'stack/cabling[2] to fixing bugs. [2] Protip: never, ever crimp your own ethernet patch cables. If they're under 20 feet, they're under $3 online (my preferred vendor is pchcables.com, due to their broad color selection). Between the cable, modular connectors (you know there are different ones for solid and stranded, right?), anti-snag boots, and amortized cost of a crimper, you might not even be saving money if labor were free. Over 20 feet, terminate both ends with a female punch-down connector (patch panel or keystone jack in a box). Never having to troubleshoot intermitted network issues: priceless. [3] subjunctive
Goosey 16y ago
"Some of our employees have kids and leave earlier, put the kids to bed, and hop on IRC to help out if/when they can." "separated work from personal life." Sorry, but this whole defense is just making me angry. The issue for me is less that the long hours are worked (everyone there is there voluntarily, etc), the issue is that posts defending it in such a way that glorifies it. When you are throwing out statements that imply if you love what you do you will work 12 hours and if you work 8 hours you are watch the clock.. That indicates you a building a company culture of heroics that looks down on lesser people who choose to work with a reasonable life/work balance. You have to understand that people would not be so critical about this point if they didn't feel an emotional stake in it. Since they are (presumably) not employed and directly affected, my belief is this: the mentality is dangerous and it spreads. Your employees will one day spread out and take that culture with them. I escaped from the digital games industry for this very reason. What might have started as a cultural thing for a few early core companies is now an INDUSTRY WIDE practice of overwork, mismanagement, and exploitation. The culture continues to be persisted through hero stories. I have many friends still in the industry who seem bipolar in their stance towards it: One day they are complaining how on the nicest weekend of the summer they were working towards TRC requirements due to an overly ambitious schedule, the next they are bragging about working that weekend as proof of how hardcore they are and how much they love their job. It's psychotic.

by aberman 16y ago

loewenskind 16y ago

You need to take some time off and go look at modern research on productivity. You're not gaining anything with these hours. You feel like you're getting more done, but the science simply doesn't support that this is what's happening.

mmt 16y ago
Thank you. This is the most succinct and (IMO) valid criticism of the long-hours apologias. It's not just a question of no additional productivity, but one of actual damage. My own role[1] doubly exposes me to these risks. As I might actually handle hardware, the increased risk of "industrial" injury one exposure, and, of course, being on call is the other. Even with the knowledge and acceptance of such studies, there's the difficult task of self-discipline. The temptation to stay just a little longer, to get one last thing working, is strong on its own, but, combined with peer pressure, is nearly irresistible. This is why it's so important that founders, managers, or anyone with a voice of authority, make[3] this an explicit part of the culture. [1] System administration, which, for a startup at an early enough stage means anything from facilities/rack'n'stack/cabling[2] to fixing bugs. [2] Protip: never, ever crimp your own ethernet patch cables. If they're under 20 feet, they're under $3 online (my preferred vendor is pchcables.com, due to their broad color selection). Between the cable, modular connectors (you know there are different ones for solid and stranded, right?), anti-snag boots, and amortized cost of a crimper, you might not even be saving money if labor were free. Over 20 feet, terminate both ends with a female punch-down connector (patch panel or keystone jack in a box). Never having to troubleshoot intermitted network issues: priceless. [3] subjunctive

Goosey 16y ago

"Some of our employees have kids and leave earlier, put the kids to bed, and hop on IRC to help out if/when they can." "separated work from personal life." Sorry, but this whole defense is just making me angry. The issue for me is less that the long hours are worked (everyone there is there voluntarily, etc), the issue is that posts defending it in such a way that glorifies it. When you are throwing out statements that imply if you love what you do you will work 12 hours and if you work 8 hours you are watch the clock.. That indicates you a building a company culture of heroics that looks down on lesser people who choose to work with a reasonable life/work balance. You have to understand that people would not be so critical about this point if they didn't feel an emotional stake in it. Since they are (presumably) not employed and directly affected, my belief is this: the mentality is dangerous and it spreads. Your employees will one day spread out and take that culture with them. I escaped from the digital games industry for this very reason. What might have started as a cultural thing for a few early core companies is now an INDUSTRY WIDE practice of overwork, mismanagement, and exploitation. The culture continues to be persisted through hero stories. I have many friends still in the industry who seem bipolar in their stance towards it: One day they are complaining how on the nicest weekend of the summer they were working towards TRC requirements due to an overly ambitious schedule, the next they are bragging about working that weekend as proof of how hardcore they are and how much they love their job. It's psychotic.