5 ms·

8:30 AM - 9 PM ? Jesus.

by enjo 16y ago

adamhowell 16y ago
Don't worry, the next bullet point clearly states they "separated work from personal life."
- brown9-2 16y ago
  ...but only on the weekends.
  - adamhowell 16y ago
    Well, duh, it's not like you can afford to spend time with family and friends during the week.
- kolektiv 16y ago
  Yes, that's quite easy if the definition of personal life is "Sweet Jesus, sleep!" More seriously, that's the kind of thing which does creep in to companies. They have a culture already. It's a long hours culture. You may or may not think that's a bad thing, but it's there. It's quite hard to lose as well. People come in, they can't work less than the people already there, so they jump in to it. Soon people that only work 11 hour days are regarded as slackers. Nip it in the bud. It can't work forever, and it'll get harder to change.
  - billclerico 16y ago
    we don't apologize for working hard. we're a startup trying to make it in a competitive business. what rich meant was that unlike other companies, where social & work bleed together (people hang at the office 7 days a week, 15 hours a day but aren't always working) - we come in, we jam all day, we go home. and we take weekends off.
    - ant5 16y ago
      we don't apologize for working hard. we're a startup trying to make it in a competitive business. Past a certain amount of time, you're spinning your wheels, doing bad work you'll have to clean up later, and pushing yourself towards an early burn-out. It's unhealthy, non-sustainable, a bad cultural precedent. If there's no other choice, then do it -- we all have. But don't be too proud of it; it's not something you want engrained in your culture.
      - aberman 16y ago
        jeeze man, it's 60 hours a week (assuming that we never leave early or take a day off). It's nowhere near the hours worked by a first year analyst at an ibank, or by a first year associate at a law firm. Bill is not saying we are particularly proud of how much we work, just that we aren't apologizing for it. Especially when we are talking about the first 5 employees in the company. Trust me, I don't want to be working 12 hour days a year from now, but it's what the company requires right now. I enjoy coming to work every day and working on something I love. I'd much rather do that for 12 hours a day, than watch the clock for 8.
- coffeemug 16y ago
  Look, the post has eight hundred and nine words which break down to four thousand four hundred and seventy two letters (according to wc). It's pretty dense in content, there is no fluff - most of the words are important. The above comment addresses fourteen letters (or 0.3% of the post's content). This is now all we're discussing. The rest of the content is pretty much ignored. As far as I can tell the hours are completely tangential to the main topic of the post. If that one line was removed, suddenly the main thrust of the comments here would have been totally different. Let's not turn into a community that focuses on soundbites, please. We can be better than that.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    The way language works, some sequences of characters are more important than others. The way threads work, if you feel like discussing some other aspect of the article then you can go right ahead and start another top-level thread about it. For me, the revelation that they routinely work twelve-and-a-half-hour days, every day, is the most important part of this "company culture" post. It's the one that, if I were considering applying for a job at this company, decide that there is absolutely no fricking way I wanted to work at this company.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
aberman 16y ago
Fair enough, but just to be clear, these were the first five employees (including my cofounder and me). Now, some of us still work those hours, and some don't. We don't "monitor" hours or tell people they can't take time off or leave early - and a lot of people take full liberty to do so (and they should). Some of our employees have kids and leave earlier, put the kids to bed, and hop on IRC to help out if/when they can. I am TOTALLY aware that as we hire more, the avg hours worked by the avg employee will decrease over time. I think that's normal. I imagine that the early employees will always tend to work a little longer - or at least they should.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  You need to take some time off and go look at modern research on productivity. You're not gaining anything with these hours. You feel like you're getting more done, but the science simply doesn't support that this is what's happening.
  - mmt 16y ago
    Thank you. This is the most succinct and (IMO) valid criticism of the long-hours apologias. It's not just a question of no additional productivity, but one of actual damage. My own role[1] doubly exposes me to these risks. As I might actually handle hardware, the increased risk of "industrial" injury one exposure, and, of course, being on call is the other. Even with the knowledge and acceptance of such studies, there's the difficult task of self-discipline. The temptation to stay just a little longer, to get one last thing working, is strong on its own, but, combined with peer pressure, is nearly irresistible. This is why it's so important that founders, managers, or anyone with a voice of authority, make[3] this an explicit part of the culture. [1] System administration, which, for a startup at an early enough stage means anything from facilities/rack'n'stack/cabling[2] to fixing bugs. [2] Protip: never, ever crimp your own ethernet patch cables. If they're under 20 feet, they're under $3 online (my preferred vendor is pchcables.com, due to their broad color selection). Between the cable, modular connectors (you know there are different ones for solid and stranded, right?), anti-snag boots, and amortized cost of a crimper, you might not even be saving money if labor were free. Over 20 feet, terminate both ends with a female punch-down connector (patch panel or keystone jack in a box). Never having to troubleshoot intermitted network issues: priceless. [3] subjunctive
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
klochner 16y ago
It's easier to maintain those hours if you have a significant equity stake. The equation doesn't add up when your primary compensation is salary (later hires).
- smeagol 16y ago
  it's easy to maintain these hours when you love your job and you believe in your company (and have great teammates). you can't let equity and/or salary be your sole motivation; you have to actually enjoy what you do.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    Sorry, but I don't regard anyone who puts in these kinds of hours for a salary and chance at a token bonus (say 40% of yearly base) as rational. You've only got so many productive hours in your life. If you love working so much then take a second job you love and work both at reasonable hours. If you ever wake up and realize life isn't all about making other people rich, at least you'll have a lot more to show for your effort.
    - smeagol 16y ago
      you really think 60 hrs/wk is hard?
ww520 16y ago
It reminds me of the Japanese salaryman's long hour at work. It's expected that he stays at work for long hour since it's part of the culture. The thing is those are unproductive hours in a lot of cases. I wonder how much of these 12 hour days are truly productive.

8:30 AM - 9 PM ? Jesus.

by enjo 16y ago

8:30 AM - 9 PM ? Jesus.

adamhowell 16y ago

Don't worry, the next bullet point clearly states they "separated work from personal life."

brown9-2 16y ago
...but only on the weekends.
- adamhowell 16y ago
  Well, duh, it's not like you can afford to spend time with family and friends during the week.
kolektiv 16y ago
Yes, that's quite easy if the definition of personal life is "Sweet Jesus, sleep!" More seriously, that's the kind of thing which does creep in to companies. They have a culture already. It's a long hours culture. You may or may not think that's a bad thing, but it's there. It's quite hard to lose as well. People come in, they can't work less than the people already there, so they jump in to it. Soon people that only work 11 hour days are regarded as slackers. Nip it in the bud. It can't work forever, and it'll get harder to change.
- billclerico 16y ago
  we don't apologize for working hard. we're a startup trying to make it in a competitive business. what rich meant was that unlike other companies, where social & work bleed together (people hang at the office 7 days a week, 15 hours a day but aren't always working) - we come in, we jam all day, we go home. and we take weekends off.
  - ant5 16y ago
    we don't apologize for working hard. we're a startup trying to make it in a competitive business. Past a certain amount of time, you're spinning your wheels, doing bad work you'll have to clean up later, and pushing yourself towards an early burn-out. It's unhealthy, non-sustainable, a bad cultural precedent. If there's no other choice, then do it -- we all have. But don't be too proud of it; it's not something you want engrained in your culture.
    - aberman 16y ago
      jeeze man, it's 60 hours a week (assuming that we never leave early or take a day off). It's nowhere near the hours worked by a first year analyst at an ibank, or by a first year associate at a law firm. Bill is not saying we are particularly proud of how much we work, just that we aren't apologizing for it. Especially when we are talking about the first 5 employees in the company. Trust me, I don't want to be working 12 hour days a year from now, but it's what the company requires right now. I enjoy coming to work every day and working on something I love. I'd much rather do that for 12 hours a day, than watch the clock for 8.
coffeemug 16y ago
Look, the post has eight hundred and nine words which break down to four thousand four hundred and seventy two letters (according to wc). It's pretty dense in content, there is no fluff - most of the words are important. The above comment addresses fourteen letters (or 0.3% of the post's content). This is now all we're discussing. The rest of the content is pretty much ignored. As far as I can tell the hours are completely tangential to the main topic of the post. If that one line was removed, suddenly the main thrust of the comments here would have been totally different. Let's not turn into a community that focuses on soundbites, please. We can be better than that.
- hugh3 16y ago
  The way language works, some sequences of characters are more important than others. The way threads work, if you feel like discussing some other aspect of the article then you can go right ahead and start another top-level thread about it. For me, the revelation that they routinely work twelve-and-a-half-hour days, every day, is the most important part of this "company culture" post. It's the one that, if I were considering applying for a job at this company, decide that there is absolutely no fricking way I wanted to work at this company.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

aberman 16y ago

Fair enough, but just to be clear, these were the first five employees (including my cofounder and me). Now, some of us still work those hours, and some don't. We don't "monitor" hours or tell people they can't take time off or leave early - and a lot of people take full liberty to do so (and they should). Some of our employees have kids and leave earlier, put the kids to bed, and hop on IRC to help out if/when they can. I am TOTALLY aware that as we hire more, the avg hours worked by the avg employee will decrease over time. I think that's normal. I imagine that the early employees will always tend to work a little longer - or at least they should.

loewenskind 16y ago
You need to take some time off and go look at modern research on productivity. You're not gaining anything with these hours. You feel like you're getting more done, but the science simply doesn't support that this is what's happening.
- mmt 16y ago
  Thank you. This is the most succinct and (IMO) valid criticism of the long-hours apologias. It's not just a question of no additional productivity, but one of actual damage. My own role[1] doubly exposes me to these risks. As I might actually handle hardware, the increased risk of "industrial" injury one exposure, and, of course, being on call is the other. Even with the knowledge and acceptance of such studies, there's the difficult task of self-discipline. The temptation to stay just a little longer, to get one last thing working, is strong on its own, but, combined with peer pressure, is nearly irresistible. This is why it's so important that founders, managers, or anyone with a voice of authority, make[3] this an explicit part of the culture. [1] System administration, which, for a startup at an early enough stage means anything from facilities/rack'n'stack/cabling[2] to fixing bugs. [2] Protip: never, ever crimp your own ethernet patch cables. If they're under 20 feet, they're under $3 online (my preferred vendor is pchcables.com, due to their broad color selection). Between the cable, modular connectors (you know there are different ones for solid and stranded, right?), anti-snag boots, and amortized cost of a crimper, you might not even be saving money if labor were free. Over 20 feet, terminate both ends with a female punch-down connector (patch panel or keystone jack in a box). Never having to troubleshoot intermitted network issues: priceless. [3] subjunctive

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

klochner 16y ago

It's easier to maintain those hours if you have a significant equity stake. The equation doesn't add up when your primary compensation is salary (later hires).

smeagol 16y ago
it's easy to maintain these hours when you love your job and you believe in your company (and have great teammates). you can't let equity and/or salary be your sole motivation; you have to actually enjoy what you do.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  Sorry, but I don't regard anyone who puts in these kinds of hours for a salary and chance at a token bonus (say 40% of yearly base) as rational. You've only got so many productive hours in your life. If you love working so much then take a second job you love and work both at reasonable hours. If you ever wake up and realize life isn't all about making other people rich, at least you'll have a lot more to show for your effort.
  - smeagol 16y ago
    you really think 60 hrs/wk is hard?

ww520 16y ago

It reminds me of the Japanese salaryman's long hour at work. It's expected that he stays at work for long hour since it's part of the culture. The thing is those are unproductive hours in a lot of cases. I wonder how much of these 12 hour days are truly productive.