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> IMO it's still primarily a body/gesture language. Nonsense. The vast majority of what we communicate nowadays cannot be represented adequately or at all by

by brazzy 9y ago

> IMO it's still primarily a body/gesture language. Nonsense. The vast majority of what we communicate nowadays cannot be represented adequately or at all by your "more primal human communication channels".

ben_w 9y ago
I believe a single emoji — ponder or similar — is genuinely an appropriate response here, however they are automatically stripped. A policy I agree with, but they are surprisingly capable despite their simplicity and (in many cases) direct mapping onto body states.
- brazzy 9y ago
  Now try expressing the concepts of "automatically stripped", or "policy I agree with", or "surprisingly capable" in emoji or body language.
  - xj9 9y ago
    emoji don't help you express precise rational statements. they add something that text lacks: the subtext that people normally express with tone and body language. emoji aren't a replacement for your day to day unicode symbols, they are something you can add to make your messages more expressive. technically you can express all of the same things without emoji, but there's a limit to how subtle you can be. by adding an emotional cue using an emoji i can completely change the meaning of a statement by adding contextual subtext.
    - brazzy 9y ago
      That's a very different thing than the claim that human language is "still primarily a body/gesture language", which is what I was arguing against.
      - ben_w 9y ago
        There are many interesting things which cannot be expressed by body language, one of which is what is meant by “primarily”. Maslow's hierarchy? Body language is primary, it comes first. By number of bits required to describe the typical change to synaptic weights? No idea. By number of raw bits? If I had to bet, I’d give 10:1 that body language beats words with reasonable compression for both audio and video streams, much stronger certainty for uncompressed.
- hammock 9y ago
  That is a great point. Also note though, that none of the Bonobo/Chimp gestures listed in OP are actually emotions! They are mostly commands or expressed desires. And all can be easily done by humans with gestures and no voice as well. Do these animals express emotion with face and body? Do we know very little about that, or is that just outside the scope of this study?
anti_cf 9y ago
Good luck procreating without it.
lainga 9y ago
But it is overridden by more primal signals. If I lower my chin (widening the face's aspect ratio), clench my fists and muscle in up close to you, and say "Nice to meet you" through gritted teeth, what message do you get?
- brazzy 9y ago
  > But it is overridden by more primal signals. Please read again what I wrote and then consider how your reply completely misses my point. > If I lower my chin (widening the face's aspect ratio), clench my fists and muscle in up close to you, and say "Nice to meet you" through gritted teeth, what message do you get? The vast majority of vocal communication nowadays is not things like "Nice to meet you". Your contrived situation falls apart when you're saying instead "I would like to order a double Espresso and a slice of cheesecake".
ThrustVectoring 9y ago
I don't think you're noticing the vast majority of communication as communication. The inner voice that narrates your experiences is a tiny portion of the whole, and if you practice at it you can notice more of what goes on outside its grasp. Like, uhh, take a look at a crowded sidewalk sometime. A ton of people there collectively figure out how to communicate their intended motion and collectively decide how to plan out how to go about in a way that doesn't have collisions. It's an incredible amount of complex negotiation, and it happens at a pace that is far too rapid for discussion to help out. Or better yet, take a partnered dance class or twelve. You'll quickly develop a very acute sense of how people use their bodies and what kinesthetic ideas they have for the music.

by brazzy 9y ago

ben_w 9y ago

I believe a single emoji — ponder or similar — is genuinely an appropriate response here, however they are automatically stripped. A policy I agree with, but they are surprisingly capable despite their simplicity and (in many cases) direct mapping onto body states.

brazzy 9y ago
Now try expressing the concepts of "automatically stripped", or "policy I agree with", or "surprisingly capable" in emoji or body language.
- xj9 9y ago
  emoji don't help you express precise rational statements. they add something that text lacks: the subtext that people normally express with tone and body language. emoji aren't a replacement for your day to day unicode symbols, they are something you can add to make your messages more expressive. technically you can express all of the same things without emoji, but there's a limit to how subtle you can be. by adding an emotional cue using an emoji i can completely change the meaning of a statement by adding contextual subtext.
  - brazzy 9y ago
    That's a very different thing than the claim that human language is "still primarily a body/gesture language", which is what I was arguing against.
    - ben_w 9y ago
      There are many interesting things which cannot be expressed by body language, one of which is what is meant by “primarily”. Maslow's hierarchy? Body language is primary, it comes first. By number of bits required to describe the typical change to synaptic weights? No idea. By number of raw bits? If I had to bet, I’d give 10:1 that body language beats words with reasonable compression for both audio and video streams, much stronger certainty for uncompressed.
hammock 9y ago
That is a great point. Also note though, that none of the Bonobo/Chimp gestures listed in OP are actually emotions! They are mostly commands or expressed desires. And all can be easily done by humans with gestures and no voice as well. Do these animals express emotion with face and body? Do we know very little about that, or is that just outside the scope of this study?

anti_cf 9y ago

Good luck procreating without it.

lainga 9y ago

But it is overridden by more primal signals. If I lower my chin (widening the face's aspect ratio), clench my fists and muscle in up close to you, and say "Nice to meet you" through gritted teeth, what message do you get?

brazzy 9y ago
> But it is overridden by more primal signals. Please read again what I wrote and then consider how your reply completely misses my point. > If I lower my chin (widening the face's aspect ratio), clench my fists and muscle in up close to you, and say "Nice to meet you" through gritted teeth, what message do you get? The vast majority of vocal communication nowadays is not things like "Nice to meet you". Your contrived situation falls apart when you're saying instead "I would like to order a double Espresso and a slice of cheesecake".

ThrustVectoring 9y ago

I don't think you're noticing the vast majority of communication as communication. The inner voice that narrates your experiences is a tiny portion of the whole, and if you practice at it you can notice more of what goes on outside its grasp. Like, uhh, take a look at a crowded sidewalk sometime. A ton of people there collectively figure out how to communicate their intended motion and collectively decide how to plan out how to go about in a way that doesn't have collisions. It's an incredible amount of complex negotiation, and it happens at a pace that is far too rapid for discussion to help out. Or better yet, take a partnered dance class or twelve. You'll quickly develop a very acute sense of how people use their bodies and what kinesthetic ideas they have for the music.