10 ms·

It's quite possible that human language started as body/gesture language and then migrated to primarily voice.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago
IMO it's still primarily a body/gesture language. Oh, sure, it has some abstract symbolic representation stuff built on top of more primal human communication channels. However, when the new stuff conflicts with body language and paralinguistic signals, it typically gets disregarded.
- mratzloff 8y ago
  He said on a global network where communication is primarily text-based.
  - dghf 8y ago
    Yes, but when I read that I imagine your eyes rolling.
  - mjburgess 8y ago
    And infamous for its vitriol.
  - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
    Well, yeah, I like the textual/narrative stuff too. It's a fun game. It's just a minority of my experience.
- brazzy 8y ago
  > IMO it's still primarily a body/gesture language. Nonsense. The vast majority of what we communicate nowadays cannot be represented adequately or at all by your "more primal human communication channels".
  - ben_w 8y ago
    I believe a single emoji — ponder or similar — is genuinely an appropriate response here, however they are automatically stripped. A policy I agree with, but they are surprisingly capable despite their simplicity and (in many cases) direct mapping onto body states.
    - brazzy 8y ago
      Now try expressing the concepts of "automatically stripped", or "policy I agree with", or "surprisingly capable" in emoji or body language.
      - xj9 8y ago
        emoji don't help you express precise rational statements. they add something that text lacks: the subtext that people normally express with tone and body language. emoji aren't a replacement for your day to day unicode symbols, they are something you can add to make your messages more expressive. technically you can express all of the same things without emoji, but there's a limit to how subtle you can be. by adding an emotional cue using an emoji i can completely change the meaning of a statement by adding contextual subtext.
        brazzy 8y ago
        That's a very different thing than the claim that human language is "still primarily a body/gesture language", which is what I was arguing against.
        ben_w 8y ago
        There are many interesting things which cannot be expressed by body language, one of which is what is meant by “primarily”. Maslow's hierarchy? Body language is primary, it comes first. By number of bits required to describe the typical change to synaptic weights? No idea. By number of raw bits? If I had to bet, I’d give 10:1 that body language beats words with reasonable compression for both audio and video streams, much stronger certainty for uncompressed.
- ramblerman 8y ago
  > Oh, sure, it has some abstract symbolic representation stuff built on top Some??? You mean concepts like Money, God, the State, Law, debt, marriage, responsibility :)
- drb91 8y ago
  So what is crying then? You’re being hugely reductive for no discernable benefit.
simiones 8y ago
It's also very possible that human language started as a purely internal thinking mechanism, and only later became adopted for communicating with other humans. This seems very counter-intuitive initially, but makes more sense when you think about how much of your use of language is addressed to other people, and how much is used simply for thinking to yourself.
- yosito 8y ago
  I'm multi-lingual and very few of my thoughts are in any "language" unless I'm intending to communicate them with others. When I only spoke English, I don't think my thoughts were in English either, but it was harder to be aware of that fact until I could ask myself which language I was thinking in. The same is true of my dreams. I don't dream in any particular language, other than an occasional word here or there.
  - simiones 8y ago
    Interesting! Myself, I have a native language and I'm also fluent in English, and basically all of my thoughts are expressed conversationally (I also have conversations in most of my dreams, though of course they have many other components). I'm curious - if you don't think in language, do you have any way of explaining how you think about abstract concepts?

IMO it's still primarily a body/gesture language. Oh, sure, it has some abstract symbolic representation stuff built on top of more primal human communication channels. However, when the new stuff conflicts with body language and paralinguistic signals, it typically gets disregarded.

mratzloff 8y ago
He said on a global network where communication is primarily text-based.
- dghf 8y ago
  Yes, but when I read that I imagine your eyes rolling.
- mjburgess 8y ago
  And infamous for its vitriol.
- ThrustVectoring 8y ago
  Well, yeah, I like the textual/narrative stuff too. It's a fun game. It's just a minority of my experience.
brazzy 8y ago
> IMO it's still primarily a body/gesture language. Nonsense. The vast majority of what we communicate nowadays cannot be represented adequately or at all by your "more primal human communication channels".
- ben_w 8y ago
  I believe a single emoji — ponder or similar — is genuinely an appropriate response here, however they are automatically stripped. A policy I agree with, but they are surprisingly capable despite their simplicity and (in many cases) direct mapping onto body states.
  - brazzy 8y ago
    Now try expressing the concepts of "automatically stripped", or "policy I agree with", or "surprisingly capable" in emoji or body language.
    - xj9 8y ago
      emoji don't help you express precise rational statements. they add something that text lacks: the subtext that people normally express with tone and body language. emoji aren't a replacement for your day to day unicode symbols, they are something you can add to make your messages more expressive. technically you can express all of the same things without emoji, but there's a limit to how subtle you can be. by adding an emotional cue using an emoji i can completely change the meaning of a statement by adding contextual subtext.
      - brazzy 8y ago
        That's a very different thing than the claim that human language is "still primarily a body/gesture language", which is what I was arguing against.
        ben_w 8y ago
        There are many interesting things which cannot be expressed by body language, one of which is what is meant by “primarily”. Maslow's hierarchy? Body language is primary, it comes first. By number of bits required to describe the typical change to synaptic weights? No idea. By number of raw bits? If I had to bet, I’d give 10:1 that body language beats words with reasonable compression for both audio and video streams, much stronger certainty for uncompressed.
ramblerman 8y ago
> Oh, sure, it has some abstract symbolic representation stuff built on top Some??? You mean concepts like Money, God, the State, Law, debt, marriage, responsibility :)
drb91 8y ago
So what is crying then? You’re being hugely reductive for no discernable benefit.

simiones 8y ago

It's also very possible that human language started as a purely internal thinking mechanism, and only later became adopted for communicating with other humans. This seems very counter-intuitive initially, but makes more sense when you think about how much of your use of language is addressed to other people, and how much is used simply for thinking to yourself.

yosito 8y ago
I'm multi-lingual and very few of my thoughts are in any "language" unless I'm intending to communicate them with others. When I only spoke English, I don't think my thoughts were in English either, but it was harder to be aware of that fact until I could ask myself which language I was thinking in. The same is true of my dreams. I don't dream in any particular language, other than an occasional word here or there.
- simiones 8y ago
  Interesting! Myself, I have a native language and I'm also fluent in English, and basically all of my thoughts are expressed conversationally (I also have conversations in most of my dreams, though of course they have many other components). I'm curious - if you don't think in language, do you have any way of explaining how you think about abstract concepts?