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The spin is preposterous. They should just say that that's a natural outcome of better real estate utilization and that the city needs to figure out how to buil

The spin is preposterous. They should just say that that's a natural outcome of better real estate utilization and that the city needs to figure out how to build more affordable housing.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Easy there with terms like “better real estate utilization”, which could be conflated with “more efficient rent seeking at the expense of housing consumers”. The end goal is not always maximum profit extraction. NYC is served best by balancing the needs of both long term and short term renters, while ensuring investors reasonable compensation/rates of return on capital invested for services provided.
- DubiousPusher 9y ago
  That's fair.
- sdhgaiojfsa 9y ago
  This is not what people traditionally think of as "rent-seeking." Rent-seeking behavior is doing something to get more money without providing any corresponding value. AirBnb hosts do provide value -- just not to the people who live in the neighborhood. But it is fine to argue that, based on their willingness to pay more, out of town visitors provide better utilization of the housing resource. TL;DR: Extracting rents from things you own by providing economic value to a customer is not "rent-seeking."
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - CryptoPunk 9y ago
    Exactly. Banning people from renting out their place on Airbnb is actually what's rent-seeking. It means you get to enjoy lower rent, but at the expense of the unit's full economic potential being utilized. In economic terms, if a unit can fetch a higher rent being rented short term, then it provides more economic value as a short term rental, and laws preventing that reduce economic utility.
  - bobthepanda 9y ago
    Short-term, <90 day accomodations are not "housing", and never have been considered as such. That's why they're in a completely different regulatory category and always have been. In a democracy it makes sense that a city would prioritize the needs of the citizens who live and vote there over short-termers and people looking to make a quick buck.
    - sdhgaiojfsa 9y ago
      I'm not commenting on the validity of the policy, only one whether rent-seeking is the correct term to describe lending one's property out on AirBnb.
  - atom_arranger 9y ago
    Extracting rents from things you own is literally "rent-seeking". It's the definition of "rent-seeking". You can argue the pros and cons or rent-seeking or of Airbnb, but "rent-seeking" clearly covers Airbnb.
    - sdhgaiojfsa 9y ago
      No, that is not the definition of rent seeking. The definition of rent seeking is: "In economics and in public-choice theory, rent-seeking involves seeking to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating new wealth." An example of rent-seeking would be lobbying against the construction of new housing to inflate the value of one's own home. A non-example of rent-seeking would be renting your house out to someone else. More from Wikipedia/economics 101: "Rent-seeking is distinguished in theory from profit-seeking, in which entities seek to extract value by engaging in mutually beneficial transactions . . ." such as a transaction between a property owner and someone seeking to rent that property for temporary use.
      - atom_arranger 9y ago
        There's more than one definition of the term. I do agree that the definition and examples you are using are common. "In economics and in public-choice theory, rent-seeking involves seeking to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating new wealth." - Wikipedia I would say that applies to making a profit off of property one owns by charging people to use it.
        sdhgaiojfsa 8y ago
        All passive investing is rent seeking under that interpretation of that sentence.
        atom_arranger 8y ago
        I would consider all passive investing rent seeking. Or at the very least a kind of rent. Just a quote from an article that sort of illustrates the attitude I have towards it: > One disturbing implication of Thomas Piketty’s new book, Capital, is that the American economy is slipping into a form of “rentier” capitalism, in which passive income from wealth, increasingly in the form of inherited fortunes, is supplanting dynamism, hard work and innovation. - https://qz.com/196575/to-get-rich-forget-entrepreneurship-and-marry-wealthy/ https://qz.com/196575/to-get-rich-forget-entrepreneurship-an... Apparently I'm not the only person with this attitude, although this poster was down-voted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13151809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13151809 There's also some links there. I do use passive investing, but I do consider it a kind of rent and I think society might be better off with less of it.
loceng 9y ago
The Landlord Rental Complex dictates that non-rental properties will be bought and turned into rentals, and they will constantly test increases in price - putting a constant negative pressure on the quality of life of everyone else; this leads to urban sprawl as well, passing a time cost over to people who need to travel further distances. E.g. Building more affordable housing isn't really as deep as the conversation needs to go.
bobthepanda 9y ago
So I have never seen anyone address the flip side of why there is a shortage of hotel space (hence airBNB). The reality of the situation is that hotels make terrible neighbors, particularly terrible hallway neighbors. Most people do not want to live next to temporary accommodations, and if they were going to they would rather have a separate building designated for the purpose. It is completely valid for a city to be in favor of its citizens, and not for a few short-term visitors and someone looking to make a quick buck on their apartment.

The spin is preposterous. They should just say that that's a natural outcome of better real estate utilization and that the city needs to figure out how to build more affordable housing.

toomuchtodo 9y ago

Easy there with terms like “better real estate utilization”, which could be conflated with “more efficient rent seeking at the expense of housing consumers”. The end goal is not always maximum profit extraction. NYC is served best by balancing the needs of both long term and short term renters, while ensuring investors reasonable compensation/rates of return on capital invested for services provided.

DubiousPusher 9y ago
That's fair.
sdhgaiojfsa 9y ago
This is not what people traditionally think of as "rent-seeking." Rent-seeking behavior is doing something to get more money without providing any corresponding value. AirBnb hosts do provide value -- just not to the people who live in the neighborhood. But it is fine to argue that, based on their willingness to pay more, out of town visitors provide better utilization of the housing resource. TL;DR: Extracting rents from things you own by providing economic value to a customer is not "rent-seeking."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  Exactly. Banning people from renting out their place on Airbnb is actually what's rent-seeking. It means you get to enjoy lower rent, but at the expense of the unit's full economic potential being utilized. In economic terms, if a unit can fetch a higher rent being rented short term, then it provides more economic value as a short term rental, and laws preventing that reduce economic utility.
- bobthepanda 9y ago
  Short-term, <90 day accomodations are not "housing", and never have been considered as such. That's why they're in a completely different regulatory category and always have been. In a democracy it makes sense that a city would prioritize the needs of the citizens who live and vote there over short-termers and people looking to make a quick buck.
  - sdhgaiojfsa 9y ago
    I'm not commenting on the validity of the policy, only one whether rent-seeking is the correct term to describe lending one's property out on AirBnb.
- atom_arranger 9y ago
  Extracting rents from things you own is literally "rent-seeking". It's the definition of "rent-seeking". You can argue the pros and cons or rent-seeking or of Airbnb, but "rent-seeking" clearly covers Airbnb.
  - sdhgaiojfsa 9y ago
    No, that is not the definition of rent seeking. The definition of rent seeking is: "In economics and in public-choice theory, rent-seeking involves seeking to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating new wealth." An example of rent-seeking would be lobbying against the construction of new housing to inflate the value of one's own home. A non-example of rent-seeking would be renting your house out to someone else. More from Wikipedia/economics 101: "Rent-seeking is distinguished in theory from profit-seeking, in which entities seek to extract value by engaging in mutually beneficial transactions . . ." such as a transaction between a property owner and someone seeking to rent that property for temporary use.
    - atom_arranger 9y ago
      There's more than one definition of the term. I do agree that the definition and examples you are using are common. "In economics and in public-choice theory, rent-seeking involves seeking to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating new wealth." - Wikipedia I would say that applies to making a profit off of property one owns by charging people to use it.
      - sdhgaiojfsa 8y ago
        All passive investing is rent seeking under that interpretation of that sentence.
        atom_arranger 8y ago
        I would consider all passive investing rent seeking. Or at the very least a kind of rent. Just a quote from an article that sort of illustrates the attitude I have towards it: > One disturbing implication of Thomas Piketty’s new book, Capital, is that the American economy is slipping into a form of “rentier” capitalism, in which passive income from wealth, increasingly in the form of inherited fortunes, is supplanting dynamism, hard work and innovation. - https://qz.com/196575/to-get-rich-forget-entrepreneurship-and-marry-wealthy/ https://qz.com/196575/to-get-rich-forget-entrepreneurship-an... Apparently I'm not the only person with this attitude, although this poster was down-voted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13151809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13151809 There's also some links there. I do use passive investing, but I do consider it a kind of rent and I think society might be better off with less of it.

loceng 9y ago

The Landlord Rental Complex dictates that non-rental properties will be bought and turned into rentals, and they will constantly test increases in price - putting a constant negative pressure on the quality of life of everyone else; this leads to urban sprawl as well, passing a time cost over to people who need to travel further distances. E.g. Building more affordable housing isn't really as deep as the conversation needs to go.

bobthepanda 9y ago

So I have never seen anyone address the flip side of why there is a shortage of hotel space (hence airBNB). The reality of the situation is that hotels make terrible neighbors, particularly terrible hallway neighbors. Most people do not want to live next to temporary accommodations, and if they were going to they would rather have a separate building designated for the purpose. It is completely valid for a city to be in favor of its citizens, and not for a few short-term visitors and someone looking to make a quick buck on their apartment.