6 ms·

Amazon workers tell us their warehouse horror stories

29 points by dsr12 9y ago

kadenshep 9y ago
If only they could collectively come together to make working conditions reasonable. And maybe they could then set up an organization that would be the stewards to the principles originally demanded; this organization could even adapt to changing work environments and technology. Or we could just wait until it gets so bad that the media picks up on it.
- magduf 9y ago
  >If only they could collectively come together to make working conditions reasonable. And maybe they could then set up an organization that would be the stewards to the principles originally demanded; this organization could even adapt to changing work environments and technology. Sounds like a great idea. I hear that in western Europe, esp. Germany, they even have such organizations, and it works out very well for everyone involved. Unfortunately, this just seems to be completely impossible in the US. Either you go without such an organization and you get what we see at Amazon warehouses, or you get such an organization and it's completely corrupt and dysfunctional, only really serving the people at the top of that organization.
- dv_dt 9y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/business/workers-of-amazon-divergent.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/business/workers-of-amazo... http://time.com/956/how-amazon-crushed-the-union-movement/ http://time.com/956/how-amazon-crushed-the-union-movement/ (2014)
freeone3000 9y ago
The astounding thing is that people continue to work here. "It's like modern slavery" was thrown around, but they can quit. They can work somewhere else. Either conditions are not sufficiently awful or wages are high enough so that they keep getting new employees.
- petermcneeley 9y ago
  Actually assuming moderate economic rationality (on which free market efficiency is based) we can conclude that each actor is engaged in their most effective means of utility maximization. Basically this is the best job they can get and any variation in employment is likely to be less satisfactory.
  - _rpd 9y ago
    That assumption may hold for the average worker, but not necessarily for the group that is complaining.
- noir_lord 9y ago
  Or the economy is so fucked that they simply can't get another job. Or they need the employer provided healthcare. Or they don't have access to unemployment benefits. Least worst of a bad set is still bad. I worked in warehouses when I was younger and I didn't mind it but they treat you like a human not a cog in a machine.
- dv_dt 9y ago
  Or all employers in the area are more or the same level of awful. And that says nothing about if they employers can pull off an implicitly coordinated race to the compensation bottom in a given region and section of the workforce.
- krapp 9y ago
  Plenty of people do quit - Amazon's fulfillment centers have legendarily poor retention. It's one of the reasons Amazon offers stocks to full time employees as compensation for paying below market rates, since they expect almost no one to last the two years it will take to vest. Either they'll quit, or miss quota too often or empty their UPT (or have their UPT retroactively taken, which I've heard happens) and then get fired. But bear in mind that the risk taken by quitting is losing one's livelihood and (in the US) healthcare, and not quickly finding other work in a difficult market. Just because some people find it a rational decision to prefer to put up with Amazon's poor conditions and wages, doesn't mean Amazon is reasonable for treating its employees the way it does.
noir_lord 9y ago
I tried to think of an elegant way to put this but I'm going to go for terseness. Fuck Amazon.
- petermcneeley 9y ago
  This has nothing to do with Amazon. This is a predictable outcome of a particular type of game system. Its like blaming the winner in a game of monopoly for being too greedy.
  - noir_lord 9y ago
    I've heard this put as "don't hate the player, hate the game". I find that unambitious, if the 'game' allows you to do scuzzy things and you choose to do them then you are scuzzy. Amazon by it's sheer size like other large corporations gets away with (figurative in amazon's case at least) murder. Disclaimer: I'm not anti-capitalist, I'm anti-this-type-of-capitalism.
    - petermcneeley 9y ago
      But each actor is merely doing the actions to their maximum satisfaction within the ruleset. "scuzzy" is not factored into the equation at all.
      - noir_lord 9y ago
        Indeed and I'm not disagreeing but my point is that it should be. Companies don't exist in isolation, they benefit hugely by been able to operate in stable societies with defined legal systems, educated populations who are capable of buying their products, it seems fair that in return they should pay their taxes and operate in a way that society broadly considers acceptable. The problem (imo) is that we have a two tier rule system where if you get big enough fast enough you are essentially untouchable in any real sense. * Bank Bailout * HSBC laundering money for Cartels/Terroists * VW (and others) cheating emissions, lying to customers etc. The list goes on and on and they all (in real terms) get away with it because they are too big to punish. If a SME behaved that way they'd go out of business.
logosmonkey 9y ago
I mean, most warehouse work is a horror show. I was in between jobs in my early 20's and had to take a job at a dvd packaging warehouse and it was fucking awful. You didn't know what you would be doing from day to day, 12 hour overnight shifts, sub par or no safety equipment etc. I have never been as dispondant as I was after six hours of folding hundreds of one side of a cardboard standup display for some b-movie.
blklivesmatter 9y ago
Tax cheaters only get richer. I do not see any warehouses closed, why ?
davidnycboy 9y ago
We've gotten to a point in which much of the US population is in borderline slavery. You either starve to death or work in these brutal work conditions. Another alternative is being in prison. This doesn't apply to blue collar work alone. Obscene sociopathic, bullying, cruel behavior in corporations is widespread. You learn that cheating, stealing and lying is what the majority do in order to survive and/or prosper. I'm surprised debtor's prison hasn't bee reinstated. Anyways most people say this is "human nature" and there is no better system, so nothing to see here.
tripletao 9y ago
If a company sets objective standards that 80% of its hires can meet, then 20% of its hires will either quit, or struggle desperately to meet the standard for however long the company waits before it fires them. These articles are basically about that 20% (or 10%, or 40%, or whatever fraction is unable--for physical, intellectual, social, or other reasons--to do the job as programmed into Amazon's computers). In the past, there was no algorithm, just the fuzzy judgment of the first-line manager. That had its own problems, and was the entry point for lots of racism, sexism, and other discriminatory behavior. It probably shortened the "struggle desperately" phase, though. Workers might get sympathy and lighter duties, or might get promptly fired; but few managers could stomach watching them struggle for so long. Aside: Fun to watch privileged tech workers lament conditions that most humans on the planet would consider paradise. It's not a good job; but to throw words like "slavery" around in this context seems grossly disrespectful of the genuine horrors that exist even today.
- kadenshep 9y ago
  >but to throw words like "slavery" around in this context seems grossly disrespectful No it isn't.
  - tripletao 9y ago
    You edited my comment selectively--"of the genuine horrors that exist even today". Here is one example: http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/2102498/tackling-slavery-thai-fishing-industry-one-victim http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/artic... Do you really see no difference between that and an Amazon warehouse? If the Amazon job is "slavery", then what word would you use for the guy chained up on a Thai fishing boat? I am asking this not to minimize the unpleasantness of working for Amazon, but to preserve the gravity of a word whose meaning is among the worst human evils.
    - kadenshep 9y ago
      I didn't edit anything, what?
danzig13 9y ago
Peeing in bottles and trash cans definitely shows Amazon has gone too far, but I see the other side of the spectrum everyday where there is no fear/standards. That is not fair either.
cwilkes 9y ago
“We don't recognize these allegations as an accurate portrayal of activities in our buildings." Did Amazon PR really “Fake News!” this report?

29 points by dsr12 9y ago

If only they could collectively come together to make working conditions reasonable. And maybe they could then set up an organization that would be the stewards to the principles originally demanded; this organization could even adapt to changing work environments and technology. Or we could just wait until it gets so bad that the media picks up on it.

magduf 9y ago
>If only they could collectively come together to make working conditions reasonable. And maybe they could then set up an organization that would be the stewards to the principles originally demanded; this organization could even adapt to changing work environments and technology. Sounds like a great idea. I hear that in western Europe, esp. Germany, they even have such organizations, and it works out very well for everyone involved. Unfortunately, this just seems to be completely impossible in the US. Either you go without such an organization and you get what we see at Amazon warehouses, or you get such an organization and it's completely corrupt and dysfunctional, only really serving the people at the top of that organization.
dv_dt 9y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/business/workers-of-amazon-divergent.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/business/workers-of-amazo... http://time.com/956/how-amazon-crushed-the-union-movement/ http://time.com/956/how-amazon-crushed-the-union-movement/ (2014)

freeone3000 9y ago

The astounding thing is that people continue to work here. "It's like modern slavery" was thrown around, but they can quit. They can work somewhere else. Either conditions are not sufficiently awful or wages are high enough so that they keep getting new employees.

petermcneeley 9y ago
Actually assuming moderate economic rationality (on which free market efficiency is based) we can conclude that each actor is engaged in their most effective means of utility maximization. Basically this is the best job they can get and any variation in employment is likely to be less satisfactory.
- _rpd 9y ago
  That assumption may hold for the average worker, but not necessarily for the group that is complaining.
noir_lord 9y ago
Or the economy is so fucked that they simply can't get another job. Or they need the employer provided healthcare. Or they don't have access to unemployment benefits. Least worst of a bad set is still bad. I worked in warehouses when I was younger and I didn't mind it but they treat you like a human not a cog in a machine.
dv_dt 9y ago
Or all employers in the area are more or the same level of awful. And that says nothing about if they employers can pull off an implicitly coordinated race to the compensation bottom in a given region and section of the workforce.
krapp 9y ago
Plenty of people do quit - Amazon's fulfillment centers have legendarily poor retention. It's one of the reasons Amazon offers stocks to full time employees as compensation for paying below market rates, since they expect almost no one to last the two years it will take to vest. Either they'll quit, or miss quota too often or empty their UPT (or have their UPT retroactively taken, which I've heard happens) and then get fired. But bear in mind that the risk taken by quitting is losing one's livelihood and (in the US) healthcare, and not quickly finding other work in a difficult market. Just because some people find it a rational decision to prefer to put up with Amazon's poor conditions and wages, doesn't mean Amazon is reasonable for treating its employees the way it does.

noir_lord 9y ago

I tried to think of an elegant way to put this but I'm going to go for terseness. Fuck Amazon.

petermcneeley 9y ago
This has nothing to do with Amazon. This is a predictable outcome of a particular type of game system. Its like blaming the winner in a game of monopoly for being too greedy.
- noir_lord 9y ago
  I've heard this put as "don't hate the player, hate the game". I find that unambitious, if the 'game' allows you to do scuzzy things and you choose to do them then you are scuzzy. Amazon by it's sheer size like other large corporations gets away with (figurative in amazon's case at least) murder. Disclaimer: I'm not anti-capitalist, I'm anti-this-type-of-capitalism.
  - petermcneeley 9y ago
    But each actor is merely doing the actions to their maximum satisfaction within the ruleset. "scuzzy" is not factored into the equation at all.
    - noir_lord 9y ago
      Indeed and I'm not disagreeing but my point is that it should be. Companies don't exist in isolation, they benefit hugely by been able to operate in stable societies with defined legal systems, educated populations who are capable of buying their products, it seems fair that in return they should pay their taxes and operate in a way that society broadly considers acceptable. The problem (imo) is that we have a two tier rule system where if you get big enough fast enough you are essentially untouchable in any real sense. * Bank Bailout * HSBC laundering money for Cartels/Terroists * VW (and others) cheating emissions, lying to customers etc. The list goes on and on and they all (in real terms) get away with it because they are too big to punish. If a SME behaved that way they'd go out of business.

logosmonkey 9y ago

I mean, most warehouse work is a horror show. I was in between jobs in my early 20's and had to take a job at a dvd packaging warehouse and it was fucking awful. You didn't know what you would be doing from day to day, 12 hour overnight shifts, sub par or no safety equipment etc. I have never been as dispondant as I was after six hours of folding hundreds of one side of a cardboard standup display for some b-movie.

blklivesmatter 9y ago

Tax cheaters only get richer. I do not see any warehouses closed, why ?

davidnycboy 9y ago

We've gotten to a point in which much of the US population is in borderline slavery. You either starve to death or work in these brutal work conditions. Another alternative is being in prison. This doesn't apply to blue collar work alone. Obscene sociopathic, bullying, cruel behavior in corporations is widespread. You learn that cheating, stealing and lying is what the majority do in order to survive and/or prosper. I'm surprised debtor's prison hasn't bee reinstated. Anyways most people say this is "human nature" and there is no better system, so nothing to see here.

tripletao 9y ago

If a company sets objective standards that 80% of its hires can meet, then 20% of its hires will either quit, or struggle desperately to meet the standard for however long the company waits before it fires them. These articles are basically about that 20% (or 10%, or 40%, or whatever fraction is unable--for physical, intellectual, social, or other reasons--to do the job as programmed into Amazon's computers). In the past, there was no algorithm, just the fuzzy judgment of the first-line manager. That had its own problems, and was the entry point for lots of racism, sexism, and other discriminatory behavior. It probably shortened the "struggle desperately" phase, though. Workers might get sympathy and lighter duties, or might get promptly fired; but few managers could stomach watching them struggle for so long. Aside: Fun to watch privileged tech workers lament conditions that most humans on the planet would consider paradise. It's not a good job; but to throw words like "slavery" around in this context seems grossly disrespectful of the genuine horrors that exist even today.

kadenshep 9y ago
>but to throw words like "slavery" around in this context seems grossly disrespectful No it isn't.
- tripletao 9y ago
  You edited my comment selectively--"of the genuine horrors that exist even today". Here is one example: http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/2102498/tackling-slavery-thai-fishing-industry-one-victim http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/artic... Do you really see no difference between that and an Amazon warehouse? If the Amazon job is "slavery", then what word would you use for the guy chained up on a Thai fishing boat? I am asking this not to minimize the unpleasantness of working for Amazon, but to preserve the gravity of a word whose meaning is among the worst human evils.
  - kadenshep 9y ago
    I didn't edit anything, what?

danzig13 9y ago

Peeing in bottles and trash cans definitely shows Amazon has gone too far, but I see the other side of the spectrum everyday where there is no fear/standards. That is not fair either.

cwilkes 9y ago

“We don't recognize these allegations as an accurate portrayal of activities in our buildings." Did Amazon PR really “Fake News!” this report?