14 ms·

C64 Keyboard Prototype

68 points by erickhill 8y ago

vardump 8y ago
Keyboard is pretty amazing for C64 preservation efforts. Perhaps lessons learned could be applied to other same era systems. There's one part in C64 that's becoming more and more rare — the amazing SID sound chip. I wonder whether it'd be possible to have production runs of truly new 6581 and/or 8580 SID chips. Does someone still have the old masks? Other chips you could emulate with an FPGA. But SID is partially analog, so it's special. Some say no two SIDs sound the same. Btw, recent C64 music demo playing off 1 MB Ocean style (= ROM) cartridge (not REU): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxxnJVU4jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxxnJVU4jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA Yes, it's real. Not particularly good example of SID though, but still impressive for 1982/83 technology. But this one does show off SID; C64 "Cubase", realtime DSP (timestretch, low/high pass filter, distortion, etc.) pretty amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GWheE4Gkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GWheE4Gkw
- monocasa 8y ago
  > Does someone still have the old masks? You can probably reverse the masks with a microscope with a little elbow grease. Not trivial by any means, but doable by someone in a garage as a hobby. The real question, does a fab that can work with that process still exist?
  - jdswain 8y ago
    There’s an ongoing effort to understand the SID here http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4150 http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4150 Lots of interesting analog chip level stuff, it’s all new to me as I’ve only dealt with things at the digital level, but very interesting to see how the fabrication technology works in an analog way..
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  Not an EE, but might an FPGA be created to mimic one?
  - jammi 8y ago
    No, not for that. Its sound characteristics are from the physical layout of the chip and the individual differences from manufacturing is more notable on old revisions of 6581 than newer ones. 8580 models sound more or less identical to each other thanks to the improved manufacturing technology.
- zaxomi 8y ago
  Well, while the sound is coming from the SID-chip, it actually is samples. The really impressive thing is that they can play samples even tough the SID-chip was not designed to play samples. The author of "Cubase64" (Pex "Mahoney" Tufvesson) has written an interesting explanation of how it is made: https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Cubase64_White_Paper_by_Pex_Mahoney_Tufvesson.pdf https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Cubase64_White_Paper_by_P... The technique used in the two first links of parent comment, is, as I understand it, based on another work of Pex : https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Musik_RunStop_Technical_Details_by_Pex_Mahoney_Tufvesson_v2.pdf https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Musik_RunStop_Technical_D...
- jammi 8y ago
  None of those digitized things really are what the SID is about though, nor do they show it off for what it really is; a synthesizer for playing 3-channel tunes like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbwKdV89pE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbwKdV89pE For digitized sound, the SID isn't different from something like a PC beeper.
  - vardump 8y ago
    > None of those digitized things really are what the SID is about though Fair enough. Although cubase64 does use SID features in an innovate way. > For digitized sound, the SID isn't different from something like a PC beeper. C64 is way superior for playing samples compared to PC beeper. Only commonality is that it takes high amount of CPU cycles, in the linked example all of it.
    - jammi 8y ago
      A PC beeper can sound just as good, when used on a fast enough PC and the beeper output is connected to something better than the built-in piezo speaker. Even on the original IBM PC, you could make it sound almost as good by very careful optimization and close to 100% of allocation of CPU cycles, like shown at the end of the 8088 MPH demo: https://youtu.be/hNRO7lno_DM?t=6m52s https://youtu.be/hNRO7lno_DM?t=6m52s
      - vardump 8y ago
        We can agree to disagree, I just don't think PC beeper can in any realistic circumstances sound as good as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7PF5DSpjgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7PF5DSpjgM
        jammi 8y ago
        How about this? There are also plenty of DOS PC-speaker-savvy demos from the 90s on pouet.net and scene.org, but there are apparently no recordings of them on youtube without sound card configurations. Some of the late DOS games also had awesome PC-speaker support. There was also a Windows sound driver for the PC speaker in Windows 3.1 times, maybe Windows 95 as well. Basically; the faster the PC, the higher the sampling rate you can go. The sound output on Raspberry Pis and some of the cheaper USB sound cards are also very similar to having stereo PC speakers, since that's also about just dumb bit-banged PWM. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1EMcH316s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1EMcH316s
beamatronic 8y ago
As a kid all I ever wanted from any computer was this: Set pixel (x,y) to color (r,g,b) I wish today’s kids had this with as little overhead as possible
- egeozcan 8y ago
  var canvas = document.getElementById('canvas'); var ctx = canvas.getContext('2d'); ctx.fillStyle = `rgb(${r}, ${g}, ${b})`; ctx.fillRect(x, y, 1, 1); I say it's pretty close.
  - qualitytime 8y ago
    LOL, not even close.
  - sp332 8y ago
    You can save this as an HTML file: <canvas id="canvas" width="400" height="400"></canvas> <script> var canvas = document.getElementById('canvas'); var ctx = canvas.getContext('2d'); var width = canvas.width; var height = canvas.height; var imagedata = ctx.createImageData(width, height); function draw(r, g, b, x, y){ var pixelindex = (y * width + x) * 4; imagedata.data[pixelindex] = r; imagedata.data[pixelindex+1] = g; imagedata.data[pixelindex+2] = b; imagedata.data[pixelindex+3] = 255; //alpha ctx.putImageData(imagedata, 0, 0); } </script> This gives you a 400x400 space to draw on. Open the console and call draw(). draw(0,0,0,15,15);
  - codeflo 8y ago
    It's pretty amazing to me that in 2018, the way we pass colors to a modern graphics API is to build a string with comma separated list of the individual components encoded in decimal. And then people wonder why computers feel slower than they did 15 years ago.
    - egeozcan 8y ago
      Legacy APIs for DOM are hard to get rid of, which the Canvas API is based on. There is some progress though: https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/03/cssom https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/03/cssom
pault 8y ago
Those keycaps are gorgeous. If someone could manage to get those manufactured I guarantee they would fetch upwards of $150/set on a site like massdrop.
- xenomachina 8y ago
  I wonder how much it would cost to get custom keycaps made today with double-shot top and front legends.
  - pault 8y ago
    Ask signature plastics! http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/ http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/
    - xenomachina 8y ago
      It just occurred to me that using the Commodore logo probably adds to the cost, as you'd have to license it from the company that owns the trademark. (The C64 Mini avoids using the logo, presumably for this reason.)
      - pault 8y ago
        There's a set called SA Retro[1] that used the C64 logo; no idea if it was cleared or not. [1]: https://www.geekzone.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Minila-Air-SA-Retro-1.jpg https://www.geekzone.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Minila-Ai...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jammi 8y ago
  There has been an attempt at having them remanufactured, but the guy running the show isn't communicative and has had a lot of technical set-backs on the project. They're not dual-shot either, so more like the newer C64C model keys with printed markings. I'm one of the backers: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/brand-new-colored-keycaps-for-your-commodore-c64--2/x/1700659 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/brand-new-colored-keycaps...
ChickeNES 8y ago
Those acrylic backing plates are going to crack at some point. The author should look into aluminum composite panel (Dibond is one brand name). It's a sheet of HDPE plastic sandwiched between two thin layers of aluminum, and is much stiffer and stronger than acrylic of the same thickness.

68 points by erickhill 8y ago

Keyboard is pretty amazing for C64 preservation efforts. Perhaps lessons learned could be applied to other same era systems. There's one part in C64 that's becoming more and more rare — the amazing SID sound chip. I wonder whether it'd be possible to have production runs of truly new 6581 and/or 8580 SID chips. Does someone still have the old masks? Other chips you could emulate with an FPGA. But SID is partially analog, so it's special. Some say no two SIDs sound the same. Btw, recent C64 music demo playing off 1 MB Ocean style (= ROM) cartridge (not REU): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxxnJVU4jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxxnJVU4jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA Yes, it's real. Not particularly good example of SID though, but still impressive for 1982/83 technology. But this one does show off SID; C64 "Cubase", realtime DSP (timestretch, low/high pass filter, distortion, etc.) pretty amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GWheE4Gkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GWheE4Gkw

monocasa 8y ago
> Does someone still have the old masks? You can probably reverse the masks with a microscope with a little elbow grease. Not trivial by any means, but doable by someone in a garage as a hobby. The real question, does a fab that can work with that process still exist?
- jdswain 8y ago
  There’s an ongoing effort to understand the SID here http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4150 http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4150 Lots of interesting analog chip level stuff, it’s all new to me as I’ve only dealt with things at the digital level, but very interesting to see how the fabrication technology works in an analog way..
JKCalhoun 8y ago
Not an EE, but might an FPGA be created to mimic one?
- jammi 8y ago
  No, not for that. Its sound characteristics are from the physical layout of the chip and the individual differences from manufacturing is more notable on old revisions of 6581 than newer ones. 8580 models sound more or less identical to each other thanks to the improved manufacturing technology.
zaxomi 8y ago
Well, while the sound is coming from the SID-chip, it actually is samples. The really impressive thing is that they can play samples even tough the SID-chip was not designed to play samples. The author of "Cubase64" (Pex "Mahoney" Tufvesson) has written an interesting explanation of how it is made: https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Cubase64_White_Paper_by_Pex_Mahoney_Tufvesson.pdf https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Cubase64_White_Paper_by_P... The technique used in the two first links of parent comment, is, as I understand it, based on another work of Pex : https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Musik_RunStop_Technical_Details_by_Pex_Mahoney_Tufvesson_v2.pdf https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/Musik_RunStop_Technical_D...
jammi 8y ago
None of those digitized things really are what the SID is about though, nor do they show it off for what it really is; a synthesizer for playing 3-channel tunes like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbwKdV89pE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbwKdV89pE For digitized sound, the SID isn't different from something like a PC beeper.
- vardump 8y ago
  > None of those digitized things really are what the SID is about though Fair enough. Although cubase64 does use SID features in an innovate way. > For digitized sound, the SID isn't different from something like a PC beeper. C64 is way superior for playing samples compared to PC beeper. Only commonality is that it takes high amount of CPU cycles, in the linked example all of it.
  - jammi 8y ago
    A PC beeper can sound just as good, when used on a fast enough PC and the beeper output is connected to something better than the built-in piezo speaker. Even on the original IBM PC, you could make it sound almost as good by very careful optimization and close to 100% of allocation of CPU cycles, like shown at the end of the 8088 MPH demo: https://youtu.be/hNRO7lno_DM?t=6m52s https://youtu.be/hNRO7lno_DM?t=6m52s
    - vardump 8y ago
      We can agree to disagree, I just don't think PC beeper can in any realistic circumstances sound as good as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7PF5DSpjgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7PF5DSpjgM
      - jammi 8y ago
        How about this? There are also plenty of DOS PC-speaker-savvy demos from the 90s on pouet.net and scene.org, but there are apparently no recordings of them on youtube without sound card configurations. Some of the late DOS games also had awesome PC-speaker support. There was also a Windows sound driver for the PC speaker in Windows 3.1 times, maybe Windows 95 as well. Basically; the faster the PC, the higher the sampling rate you can go. The sound output on Raspberry Pis and some of the cheaper USB sound cards are also very similar to having stereo PC speakers, since that's also about just dumb bit-banged PWM. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1EMcH316s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1EMcH316s

beamatronic 8y ago

As a kid all I ever wanted from any computer was this: Set pixel (x,y) to color (r,g,b) I wish today’s kids had this with as little overhead as possible

egeozcan 8y ago
var canvas = document.getElementById('canvas'); var ctx = canvas.getContext('2d'); ctx.fillStyle = `rgb(${r}, ${g}, ${b})`; ctx.fillRect(x, y, 1, 1); I say it's pretty close.
- qualitytime 8y ago
  LOL, not even close.
- sp332 8y ago
  You can save this as an HTML file: <canvas id="canvas" width="400" height="400"></canvas> <script> var canvas = document.getElementById('canvas'); var ctx = canvas.getContext('2d'); var width = canvas.width; var height = canvas.height; var imagedata = ctx.createImageData(width, height); function draw(r, g, b, x, y){ var pixelindex = (y * width + x) * 4; imagedata.data[pixelindex] = r; imagedata.data[pixelindex+1] = g; imagedata.data[pixelindex+2] = b; imagedata.data[pixelindex+3] = 255; //alpha ctx.putImageData(imagedata, 0, 0); } </script> This gives you a 400x400 space to draw on. Open the console and call draw(). draw(0,0,0,15,15);
- codeflo 8y ago
  It's pretty amazing to me that in 2018, the way we pass colors to a modern graphics API is to build a string with comma separated list of the individual components encoded in decimal. And then people wonder why computers feel slower than they did 15 years ago.
  - egeozcan 8y ago
    Legacy APIs for DOM are hard to get rid of, which the Canvas API is based on. There is some progress though: https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/03/cssom https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/03/cssom

pault 8y ago

Those keycaps are gorgeous. If someone could manage to get those manufactured I guarantee they would fetch upwards of $150/set on a site like massdrop.

xenomachina 8y ago
I wonder how much it would cost to get custom keycaps made today with double-shot top and front legends.
- pault 8y ago
  Ask signature plastics! http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/ http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/
  - xenomachina 8y ago
    It just occurred to me that using the Commodore logo probably adds to the cost, as you'd have to license it from the company that owns the trademark. (The C64 Mini avoids using the logo, presumably for this reason.)
    - pault 8y ago
      There's a set called SA Retro[1] that used the C64 logo; no idea if it was cleared or not. [1]: https://www.geekzone.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Minila-Air-SA-Retro-1.jpg https://www.geekzone.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Minila-Ai...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jammi 8y ago
There has been an attempt at having them remanufactured, but the guy running the show isn't communicative and has had a lot of technical set-backs on the project. They're not dual-shot either, so more like the newer C64C model keys with printed markings. I'm one of the backers: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/brand-new-colored-keycaps-for-your-commodore-c64--2/x/1700659 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/brand-new-colored-keycaps...

ChickeNES 8y ago

Those acrylic backing plates are going to crack at some point. The author should look into aluminum composite panel (Dibond is one brand name). It's a sheet of HDPE plastic sandwiched between two thin layers of aluminum, and is much stiffer and stronger than acrylic of the same thickness.