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I'd like to add that actual figures for Italy are hard to estimate correctly. Many, many people work under the table, very often pretending that they're still

I'd like to add that actual figures for Italy are hard to estimate correctly. Many, many people work under the table, very often pretending that they're still out of work to keep getting the unemployment check.

crispyporkbites 8y ago
Is that anecdotal or fact? How many is many, many people?
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  Well, by "under the table" I mean that those workers are unknown to the government, so I don't think there is a way to know for sure. The government's estimates are at ~15%. From my experience, most workers in agriculture and food & beverages work under the table. It's a very complicated subject--which I can talk about if you're interested--but I don't know if you can really blame them. Taxes in Italy are almost 50%. For years I've paid 45% in taxes and 1200/yr. for my accountant. In Poland, I only pay 19% for taxes and 40/mo. for my accountant, and services to citizens and public safety are about 1000 times better than Italy. It just feels wrong to pay taxes in Italy: you don't have any money left, and whenever you need something from the government it's a nightmare and done so badly that you feel you're in a third-world country.
jahvo 8y ago
Same in Spain. People are obviously working. Otherwise there would be riots in the streets already, haha.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Yep, I have many friends who are officially unemployed; all are working. Quite hard as well. The system in Spain does not encourage paying taxes, starting companies or hiring people legally. It is quite bad but I do not see it fixed soon.
  - nkkollaw 8y ago
    Same in Italy. What a shame.
  - lainga 8y ago
    What does it encourage?
noisymemories 8y ago
Given that here in southern Italy they're usually paid 1/5 of their nominal wage, I'm not surprised. A few companies I've worked with would have folded if they had to pay most of their employees what's written on their salaries. Even while working for bigger european/US companies there's always a tacit expectation that you're gonna work twice the time it's actually written in your contract. And I'm not talking just about low-level positions, I've met junior automotive engineers whose actual wage wouldn't go north of 10€/hr.

crispyporkbites 8y ago

Is that anecdotal or fact? How many is many, many people?

nkkollaw 8y ago
Well, by "under the table" I mean that those workers are unknown to the government, so I don't think there is a way to know for sure. The government's estimates are at ~15%. From my experience, most workers in agriculture and food & beverages work under the table. It's a very complicated subject--which I can talk about if you're interested--but I don't know if you can really blame them. Taxes in Italy are almost 50%. For years I've paid 45% in taxes and 1200/yr. for my accountant. In Poland, I only pay 19% for taxes and 40/mo. for my accountant, and services to citizens and public safety are about 1000 times better than Italy. It just feels wrong to pay taxes in Italy: you don't have any money left, and whenever you need something from the government it's a nightmare and done so badly that you feel you're in a third-world country.

jahvo 8y ago

Same in Spain. People are obviously working. Otherwise there would be riots in the streets already, haha.

tluyben2 8y ago
Yep, I have many friends who are officially unemployed; all are working. Quite hard as well. The system in Spain does not encourage paying taxes, starting companies or hiring people legally. It is quite bad but I do not see it fixed soon.
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  Same in Italy. What a shame.
- lainga 8y ago
  What does it encourage?

noisymemories 8y ago

Given that here in southern Italy they're usually paid 1/5 of their nominal wage, I'm not surprised. A few companies I've worked with would have folded if they had to pay most of their employees what's written on their salaries. Even while working for bigger european/US companies there's always a tacit expectation that you're gonna work twice the time it's actually written in your contract. And I'm not talking just about low-level positions, I've met junior automotive engineers whose actual wage wouldn't go north of 10€/hr.