6 ms·

> sure they can work the young guys harder, If you are NOT a good manager, that is all that you care about. Did you fail to plan the rest release? Developers

by kartan 8y ago

> sure they can work the young guys harder, If you are NOT a good manager, that is all that you care about. Did you fail to plan the rest release? Developers will do extra hours. Did you miss understood the requirements? Developers will fix it with extra hours. Did you decide to use the wrong technology for the project? Developers will work extra hours. A company that hires only people that does what is told and stays longer hours have incompetent management. > I wonder if it’s a good for efficiency. Companies that value diversity (age, gender, nationality, etc.) are the ones looking for that high-quality output that makes products work in the long term. Sweden is as successful as China when it comes to software, even that there are orders of magnitude of the difference of population. The main reason is the respect for family and employees. Even that Sweden also is far from perfect.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dx034 8y ago
Maybe software for international markets. But there's a lot of software produced in China for the huge domestic market. I doubt Sweden has the same software output as China.
- staticelf 8y ago
  Per capita, I'm pretty sure Sweden has a higher output.
  - yesforwhat 8y ago
    Per capita they are also the largest arms dealers in the world. Per capita doesn't say much about a country overall.
    - deaddodo 8y ago
      It's the only argument that makes sense for disparate population sizes. The US and UK (and less so Germany, France, Israel and Japan) produce a sizable majority of software products, especially at an enterprise level. At a per capita level, that gap is even larger with China; and countries like Sweden and Norway become top players.
      - kodablah 8y ago
        > It's the only argument that makes sense for disparate population sizes. Or you accept that a comparison simply can't be made and don't make the argument in the first place.
        deaddodo 8y ago
        Incorrect.
      - traek 8y ago
        It’s a meaningless comparison, the median Swedish/Norwegian citizen is far more educated, wealthy, and capable of producing software than the median Chinese citizen. China’s per capita software production is dragged down by its massive rural population, many of whom have never even owned a computer other than a smartphone. If you don’t account for that, then obviously wealthier/more urbanized countries will have higher per capita production.
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        China is 55% urban. Its had a massive urban influx, and in fact the largest growth area in population is urban. However 1 in 5 are 'migrant workers' with no fixed address. I'd guess they are the least educated demographic.
  - mstade 8y ago
    There are dozens of us, dozens! Judging by any Stockholm coffee shop as well we’re all programmers, so the math checks out.
apta 8y ago
Sounds like the TSB way to manage things :-P
coldtea 8y ago
>A company that hires only people that does what is told and stays longer hours have incompetent management. Only when quality of end product / developer hapiness is concerned. Which, lip service aside, are not metrics that managers are usually measured buy. Do they bring in profit?
gruez 8y ago
>Companies that value diversity (age, gender, nationality, etc.) are the ones looking for that high-quality output that makes products work in the long term. What’s the evidence behind this assertion?
- soundwave106 8y ago
  Googling to me suggests its not as well studied as it could be; there are papers out there (eg: https://www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/63581/Thesisxx.pdf https://www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/63581/Thesisxx... and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212567114001786 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221256711...) but I'm not seeing anything with a lot of solid data out there (though this probably is a hard subject to quantify in such terms). Intuitively though this position makes sense to me that, as long as the various issues surrounding natural human tribalism are managed, diversity is generally helpful -- as each "tribe" may offer a unique perspective towards problems and solutions. Having said that, a lot of articles on "ageism in tech" more or less seem to focus on cultures of work that promote "long hours" for long hours sake, over something more balanced (and, in the end, productive and efficient). There's plenty of evidence out there that shows how wrong-headed of an approach "long hours" cultures are, this is not hard information to look up.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - aurailious 8y ago
    > may offer a unique perspective towards problems and solutions This is my impression on why diversity generally works well. Unique perspectives and experiences often generate more original and creative approaches to some problem which in turn is much more valuable. Additionally, and especially for FAANGs, having the organizational awareness of a diverse set of perspectives allows you to create solutions that are broad and can adequately meet the inherent diversity in the world. People often want to look at software engineering as this super technical line of work, but in practice it really isn't. How, What, and Why to engineer something varies significantly. Everyone will probably have a different approach to solving a problem. More diversity means a greater net to catch which one might be the most optimal. Plus, you might want to create services or apps that specifically target a need. I would honestly question how well an app for women might be if is made by all men. I would question how well a app for rural living might be if it was made by people who only lived in a city. I would question how well an app designed for use in America might be for use in Africa. There are cultural differences and use differences, needs and wants, infrastructure, etc. It would be assumed a highly diverse team would be much more suited to trying to solve those problems. And I would also believe that a highly diverse team would be the result of authentic merit based system anyways.
innagadadavida 8y ago
Many management issues you mention are not cut and dry. The fact is early stages of a product development tends to be experimentation and fast iteration. Experienced, heavy hitters don’t work well in this situation, they are great when the product has matured and you need stability and need to fix the last 10% of the issues. Hiring new grads who can code certainly helps in man many situations, but not all.
batter 8y ago
It's exactly about the company i currently work. They're just adding more and more developers.

by kartan 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dx034 8y ago

Maybe software for international markets. But there's a lot of software produced in China for the huge domestic market. I doubt Sweden has the same software output as China.

staticelf 8y ago
Per capita, I'm pretty sure Sweden has a higher output.
- yesforwhat 8y ago
  Per capita they are also the largest arms dealers in the world. Per capita doesn't say much about a country overall.
  - deaddodo 8y ago
    It's the only argument that makes sense for disparate population sizes. The US and UK (and less so Germany, France, Israel and Japan) produce a sizable majority of software products, especially at an enterprise level. At a per capita level, that gap is even larger with China; and countries like Sweden and Norway become top players.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      > It's the only argument that makes sense for disparate population sizes. Or you accept that a comparison simply can't be made and don't make the argument in the first place.
      - deaddodo 8y ago
        Incorrect.
    - traek 8y ago
      It’s a meaningless comparison, the median Swedish/Norwegian citizen is far more educated, wealthy, and capable of producing software than the median Chinese citizen. China’s per capita software production is dragged down by its massive rural population, many of whom have never even owned a computer other than a smartphone. If you don’t account for that, then obviously wealthier/more urbanized countries will have higher per capita production.
      - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        China is 55% urban. Its had a massive urban influx, and in fact the largest growth area in population is urban. However 1 in 5 are 'migrant workers' with no fixed address. I'd guess they are the least educated demographic.
- mstade 8y ago
  There are dozens of us, dozens! Judging by any Stockholm coffee shop as well we’re all programmers, so the math checks out.

apta 8y ago

Sounds like the TSB way to manage things :-P

coldtea 8y ago

>A company that hires only people that does what is told and stays longer hours have incompetent management. Only when quality of end product / developer hapiness is concerned. Which, lip service aside, are not metrics that managers are usually measured buy. Do they bring in profit?

gruez 8y ago

>Companies that value diversity (age, gender, nationality, etc.) are the ones looking for that high-quality output that makes products work in the long term. What’s the evidence behind this assertion?

soundwave106 8y ago
Googling to me suggests its not as well studied as it could be; there are papers out there (eg: https://www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/63581/Thesisxx.pdf https://www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/63581/Thesisxx... and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212567114001786 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221256711...) but I'm not seeing anything with a lot of solid data out there (though this probably is a hard subject to quantify in such terms). Intuitively though this position makes sense to me that, as long as the various issues surrounding natural human tribalism are managed, diversity is generally helpful -- as each "tribe" may offer a unique perspective towards problems and solutions. Having said that, a lot of articles on "ageism in tech" more or less seem to focus on cultures of work that promote "long hours" for long hours sake, over something more balanced (and, in the end, productive and efficient). There's plenty of evidence out there that shows how wrong-headed of an approach "long hours" cultures are, this is not hard information to look up.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- aurailious 8y ago
  > may offer a unique perspective towards problems and solutions This is my impression on why diversity generally works well. Unique perspectives and experiences often generate more original and creative approaches to some problem which in turn is much more valuable. Additionally, and especially for FAANGs, having the organizational awareness of a diverse set of perspectives allows you to create solutions that are broad and can adequately meet the inherent diversity in the world. People often want to look at software engineering as this super technical line of work, but in practice it really isn't. How, What, and Why to engineer something varies significantly. Everyone will probably have a different approach to solving a problem. More diversity means a greater net to catch which one might be the most optimal. Plus, you might want to create services or apps that specifically target a need. I would honestly question how well an app for women might be if is made by all men. I would question how well a app for rural living might be if it was made by people who only lived in a city. I would question how well an app designed for use in America might be for use in Africa. There are cultural differences and use differences, needs and wants, infrastructure, etc. It would be assumed a highly diverse team would be much more suited to trying to solve those problems. And I would also believe that a highly diverse team would be the result of authentic merit based system anyways.

innagadadavida 8y ago

Many management issues you mention are not cut and dry. The fact is early stages of a product development tends to be experimentation and fast iteration. Experienced, heavy hitters don’t work well in this situation, they are great when the product has matured and you need stability and need to fix the last 10% of the issues. Hiring new grads who can code certainly helps in man many situations, but not all.

batter 8y ago

It's exactly about the company i currently work. They're just adding more and more developers.