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The point of this report is that the empirical evidence contradicts your hypothesis. These sorts of broad-strokes, ultra-rationalist arguments should be set asi

The point of this report is that the empirical evidence contradicts your hypothesis. These sorts of broad-strokes, ultra-rationalist arguments should be set aside whenever data is available.

Consultant32452 8y ago
Data is available on rapid price inflation that coincides with central planning initiatives in the US. Data also exists showing the systemic risks to nations created by these systems, such as the looming global demographic crisis created by the combination of social welfare systems and the baby boom.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  We aren't talking about those abstract ideas, we are talking about health care and it's associated access and cost. As such, the data shows us the United States fares worse than similar countries on the measures of access and cost (both to the individual and the state)[1]. The United States also has the most "free market-like" system of comparable countries. How can it be that costs are so high and outcomes are no better if we are closer to a free market than others? [1] https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fdanmunro%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F06%2FTCFchart.jpg https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs...
  - Consultant32452 8y ago
    Causes of price inflation and the looming demographic crisis are not "abstract ideas." For literally decades the US did not open a single medical school due to lobbying from the medical industry. Even though we've tried to reverse the trend since the 90s, there are still fewer medical schools today than there were 100 years ago. When the government decides how many doctors there will be, it may get the number right or it may get the number wrong. But that's nothing akin to "free market-like." And it's a major part of the explanation why US doctors make 2x+ what their counterparts in countries like Germany make. During the New Deal era regulations wage caps were put on workers in the hopes of staving off inflation. Employers, wanting to entice good employees to work for them sought to get around these wage caps by offering health insurance. This then spread like wildfire, coincides with the time healthcare inflation separated from general inflation, and began the trend towards a lack of price transparency. Most of the differences in outcomes between us and other wealthy nations amount to lifestyle/culture much more-so than affordability and availability. Americans are very obese. Not having to pay a copay to visit the doctor is not going to change that. But obesity means we'll have more problems with newborns, lower life expectancy, etc.
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      Start with the data! > there are still fewer medical schools today than there were 100 years ago... it may get the number right or it may get the number wrong... And it's a major part of the explanation why US doctors make 2x+ what their counterparts in countries like Germany make. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1%2C000-people http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic... > Most of the differences in outcomes between us and other wealthy nations amount to lifestyle/culture much more-so than affordability and availability. Americans are very obese. Not having to pay a copay to visit the doctor is not going to change that. But obesity means we'll have more problems with newborns, lower life expectancy, etc. https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004371#V https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0043... > During the New Deal era regulations wage caps were put on workers in the hopes of staving off inflation. Employers, wanting to entice good employees to work for them sought to get around these wage caps by offering health insurance. This then spread like wildfire, coincides with the time healthcare inflation separated from general inflation, and began the trend towards a lack of price transparency. Except, of course, in the countries where it didn't spread like wildfire. Why all this crazy post-hoc history-building when you can just... empirically observe how the natural experiment played out? Your modus operandi in this thread is the start with an ideology and then derive conclusions that are often wholly inconsistent with observed reality. There's nothing wrong with premises or theory-building, but when the data flatly contradict your conclusions... well, that's the difference between reality and fantasy.
      - Consultant32452 8y ago
        >http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic.. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic.... By your link we're 52nd in doctors per capita. That's not great. Plus I'd already noted that we've made a concerted effort to undo the damage since the 90s. Are you suggesting that supply and demand has no impact whatsoever on the wages doctors are capable of demanding? Do you believe that artificially restricting the supply for decades has had no impact on wages whatsoever? >https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0043.. https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0043.... https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-01-mortality-obesity-states.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-01-mortality-obesity-sta... But obesity is not the only issue, general issues related to poverty are: https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/why-america-is-losing-the-health-race https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/why-america-is-losin... Higher adolescent pregnancy rates, higher rates of HIV, etc. === Most experts estimate that modern medical care delivered to individual patients—such as physician and hospital treatments covered by health insurance—has only been responsible for between ten and twenty-five percent of the improvements in life expectancy over the last century. The rest has come from changes in the social determinants of health, particularly in early childhood.=== So best case scenario access and affordability to healthcare accounts for about 25% of improvements in life expectancy. Except the majority of people already have access to healthcare in the US. It's not as available and affordable as we'd like, and we're talking about how best to improve availability and affordability, but it's a tiny fraction of the problem of why US health outcomes are so bad.

The point of this report is that the empirical evidence contradicts your hypothesis. These sorts of broad-strokes, ultra-rationalist arguments should be set aside whenever data is available.

Consultant32452 8y ago

Data is available on rapid price inflation that coincides with central planning initiatives in the US. Data also exists showing the systemic risks to nations created by these systems, such as the looming global demographic crisis created by the combination of social welfare systems and the baby boom.

moorhosj 8y ago
We aren't talking about those abstract ideas, we are talking about health care and it's associated access and cost. As such, the data shows us the United States fares worse than similar countries on the measures of access and cost (both to the individual and the state)[1]. The United States also has the most "free market-like" system of comparable countries. How can it be that costs are so high and outcomes are no better if we are closer to a free market than others? [1] https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fdanmunro%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F06%2FTCFchart.jpg https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs...
- Consultant32452 8y ago
  Causes of price inflation and the looming demographic crisis are not "abstract ideas." For literally decades the US did not open a single medical school due to lobbying from the medical industry. Even though we've tried to reverse the trend since the 90s, there are still fewer medical schools today than there were 100 years ago. When the government decides how many doctors there will be, it may get the number right or it may get the number wrong. But that's nothing akin to "free market-like." And it's a major part of the explanation why US doctors make 2x+ what their counterparts in countries like Germany make. During the New Deal era regulations wage caps were put on workers in the hopes of staving off inflation. Employers, wanting to entice good employees to work for them sought to get around these wage caps by offering health insurance. This then spread like wildfire, coincides with the time healthcare inflation separated from general inflation, and began the trend towards a lack of price transparency. Most of the differences in outcomes between us and other wealthy nations amount to lifestyle/culture much more-so than affordability and availability. Americans are very obese. Not having to pay a copay to visit the doctor is not going to change that. But obesity means we'll have more problems with newborns, lower life expectancy, etc.
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    Start with the data! > there are still fewer medical schools today than there were 100 years ago... it may get the number right or it may get the number wrong... And it's a major part of the explanation why US doctors make 2x+ what their counterparts in countries like Germany make. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1%2C000-people http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic... > Most of the differences in outcomes between us and other wealthy nations amount to lifestyle/culture much more-so than affordability and availability. Americans are very obese. Not having to pay a copay to visit the doctor is not going to change that. But obesity means we'll have more problems with newborns, lower life expectancy, etc. https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004371#V https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0043... > During the New Deal era regulations wage caps were put on workers in the hopes of staving off inflation. Employers, wanting to entice good employees to work for them sought to get around these wage caps by offering health insurance. This then spread like wildfire, coincides with the time healthcare inflation separated from general inflation, and began the trend towards a lack of price transparency. Except, of course, in the countries where it didn't spread like wildfire. Why all this crazy post-hoc history-building when you can just... empirically observe how the natural experiment played out? Your modus operandi in this thread is the start with an ideology and then derive conclusions that are often wholly inconsistent with observed reality. There's nothing wrong with premises or theory-building, but when the data flatly contradict your conclusions... well, that's the difference between reality and fantasy.
    - Consultant32452 8y ago
      >http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic.. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic.... By your link we're 52nd in doctors per capita. That's not great. Plus I'd already noted that we've made a concerted effort to undo the damage since the 90s. Are you suggesting that supply and demand has no impact whatsoever on the wages doctors are capable of demanding? Do you believe that artificially restricting the supply for decades has had no impact on wages whatsoever? >https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0043.. https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0043.... https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-01-mortality-obesity-states.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-01-mortality-obesity-sta... But obesity is not the only issue, general issues related to poverty are: https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/why-america-is-losing-the-health-race https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/why-america-is-losin... Higher adolescent pregnancy rates, higher rates of HIV, etc. === Most experts estimate that modern medical care delivered to individual patients—such as physician and hospital treatments covered by health insurance—has only been responsible for between ten and twenty-five percent of the improvements in life expectancy over the last century. The rest has come from changes in the social determinants of health, particularly in early childhood.=== So best case scenario access and affordability to healthcare accounts for about 25% of improvements in life expectancy. Except the majority of people already have access to healthcare in the US. It's not as available and affordable as we'd like, and we're talking about how best to improve availability and affordability, but it's a tiny fraction of the problem of why US health outcomes are so bad.