14 ms·

What if they're not an American citizen? What if they're also in a different country?

knieveltech 9y ago
What if they aren't? Are there criteria that can be met that make the decision to leave someone injured on the side of the road morally sound?
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  We aren't on the side of any roads here.
  - knieveltech 9y ago
    Fine. Sidewalk, in the middle of a restaurant, in your livingroom, at the airport. Pick a location and then feel free to explain what selection criteria make ignoring the injuries of another moral.
    - SamReidHughes 9y ago
      Okay. I pick any of the injuries of others that you're ignoring right now.
      - knieveltech 9y ago
        I am not currently actively or passively ignoring anyone's injuries. I'm a trained first responder, registered organ donor, and actively lobby my local, state, and federal government for universal healthcare and robust international humanitarian aid. It is instructive to note that two attempts to shift goalposts and distract with trivia have been made while nobody seems willing to take a crack at what is a very simple question.
        SamReidHughes 9y ago
        You haven't helped care for my injuries. Lobbying for international (paid for by others) is like calling a taxi when you've got an injured man by the road and telling the cabdriver to deal with it.
        knieveltech 9y ago
        You intentionally confuse turning a blind eye with limited ability to render aid, further attempting to obfuscate the central question. Again I am not that easily distracted. Last time, for the cheap seats, what criteria make ignoring others' injuries a moral choice?
rogerb 9y ago
My position is to take care of that person, like weve been taken care of visiting while other countries, but trying to avoid the illegal/undocumented immigrant strawman for clarity.
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  Okay, but what about people in other countries? Why don't we have an obligation to help them, to?
  - rogerb 9y ago
    That's a different question which is outside of the scope of healthcare in the US IMO.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      The underlying reasoning for universal healthcare is based on a principle, does this principle end at the US border, which I'm told is just some arbitrary, meaningless line right? If it's not clear, my tongue is firmly in my cheek as I say that, but where it isn't in my cheek is when I'm telling you some people don't just buy your simple pro-universal-healthcare argument wholesale, especially when you refuse to defend it against valid questions like this.
      - rogerb 9y ago
        I live in the US and I pay taxes in the US, so yes - healthcare for US citizens/residents paid for by US/citizens residents ends at the borders. If there is a better, more efficient system that is morally right (i.e. provides basic healthcare for it's citizens) than universal healthcare I would like someone to propose it ?
        SamReidHughes 9y ago
        That's a nice saccade you've made from "you are a terrible person" to "healthcare ... ends at the borders." Universal healthcare would be great if it was cheap and covered everything.
dv_dt 9y ago
Care for them under the universal system, but bill the cost of the universal system directly.
- analog31 9y ago
  My mom got injured while hiking in a country with universal care. She hobbled to the next town, found a clinic, and got treated. Then she wanted to pay. First, the person at the clinic said: "What do you mean, you don't pay for health care." My mom explained that she was from another country. It turned out they didn't even have the means to take her money. Treating a few foreigners for free might actually be cheaper than setting up a billing system.
  - Hozzle 9y ago
    Most UHC countries have reciprocal deals where a citizen of one has all the same rights as a citizen of the other when travelling. Its just a lot cheaper than having to ship people around or delay treatment or all the paperwork. The US has no such deals because it does not have a UHC system to deal with. However, most UHC systems that do not charge aren't going to pay out for setting up a billing infrastructure for the occasional American. The ones with co-pays etc already have a billing structure in place, and may charge you. Or not, it would be pretty mortifying to have to charge someone for health care.
  - dv_dt 9y ago
    For small stuff almost certainly, but if you get medical "tourists" explicitly travelling for say cancer treatment?
    - Hozzle 9y ago
      If you are a legal resident, you are covered. If you are a visitor it depends on what deal your national UHC system has with the nation you are visitng. Normally there would be little reason to go to a foreign country for treatment.
    - RandomCSGeek 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pygy_ 9y ago
I'm a Belgian national, living in France (under the French health care regime). If I need medical assistance while I'm in in Spain or Germany, the care will be reimbursed per the local rules, by the French health care system. Quoting Wikipedia: The European Health Insurance Card (or EHIC) is issued free of charge and allows anyone who is insured by or covered by a statutory social security scheme of the EEA countries and Switzerland to receive medical treatment in another member state free or at a reduced cost, if that treatment becomes necessary during their visit (for example, due to illness or an accident), or if they have a chronic pre-existing condition which requires care such as kidney dialysis. The term of validity of the card varies according to the issuing country. The intention of the scheme is to allow people to continue their stay in a country without having to return home for medical care; as such, it does not cover people who have visited a country for the purpose of obtaining medical care, nor does it cover care, such as many types of dental treatment, which can be delayed until the individual returns to his or her home country. The costs not covered by self-liability fees are paid by the issuing country, which is usually the country of residence but may also be the country where one receives the most pension from.[1] It only covers healthcare which is normally covered by a statutory health care system in the visited country, so it does not render travel insurance obsolete. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Health_Insurance_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Health_Insurance_Card

What if they aren't? Are there criteria that can be met that make the decision to leave someone injured on the side of the road morally sound?

SamReidHughes 9y ago
We aren't on the side of any roads here.
- knieveltech 9y ago
  Fine. Sidewalk, in the middle of a restaurant, in your livingroom, at the airport. Pick a location and then feel free to explain what selection criteria make ignoring the injuries of another moral.
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    Okay. I pick any of the injuries of others that you're ignoring right now.
    - knieveltech 9y ago
      I am not currently actively or passively ignoring anyone's injuries. I'm a trained first responder, registered organ donor, and actively lobby my local, state, and federal government for universal healthcare and robust international humanitarian aid. It is instructive to note that two attempts to shift goalposts and distract with trivia have been made while nobody seems willing to take a crack at what is a very simple question.
      - SamReidHughes 9y ago
        You haven't helped care for my injuries. Lobbying for international (paid for by others) is like calling a taxi when you've got an injured man by the road and telling the cabdriver to deal with it.
        knieveltech 9y ago
        You intentionally confuse turning a blind eye with limited ability to render aid, further attempting to obfuscate the central question. Again I am not that easily distracted. Last time, for the cheap seats, what criteria make ignoring others' injuries a moral choice?

rogerb 9y ago

My position is to take care of that person, like weve been taken care of visiting while other countries, but trying to avoid the illegal/undocumented immigrant strawman for clarity.

SamReidHughes 9y ago
Okay, but what about people in other countries? Why don't we have an obligation to help them, to?
- rogerb 9y ago
  That's a different question which is outside of the scope of healthcare in the US IMO.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    The underlying reasoning for universal healthcare is based on a principle, does this principle end at the US border, which I'm told is just some arbitrary, meaningless line right? If it's not clear, my tongue is firmly in my cheek as I say that, but where it isn't in my cheek is when I'm telling you some people don't just buy your simple pro-universal-healthcare argument wholesale, especially when you refuse to defend it against valid questions like this.
    - rogerb 9y ago
      I live in the US and I pay taxes in the US, so yes - healthcare for US citizens/residents paid for by US/citizens residents ends at the borders. If there is a better, more efficient system that is morally right (i.e. provides basic healthcare for it's citizens) than universal healthcare I would like someone to propose it ?
      - SamReidHughes 9y ago
        That's a nice saccade you've made from "you are a terrible person" to "healthcare ... ends at the borders." Universal healthcare would be great if it was cheap and covered everything.

dv_dt 9y ago

Care for them under the universal system, but bill the cost of the universal system directly.

analog31 9y ago
My mom got injured while hiking in a country with universal care. She hobbled to the next town, found a clinic, and got treated. Then she wanted to pay. First, the person at the clinic said: "What do you mean, you don't pay for health care." My mom explained that she was from another country. It turned out they didn't even have the means to take her money. Treating a few foreigners for free might actually be cheaper than setting up a billing system.
- Hozzle 9y ago
  Most UHC countries have reciprocal deals where a citizen of one has all the same rights as a citizen of the other when travelling. Its just a lot cheaper than having to ship people around or delay treatment or all the paperwork. The US has no such deals because it does not have a UHC system to deal with. However, most UHC systems that do not charge aren't going to pay out for setting up a billing infrastructure for the occasional American. The ones with co-pays etc already have a billing structure in place, and may charge you. Or not, it would be pretty mortifying to have to charge someone for health care.
- dv_dt 9y ago
  For small stuff almost certainly, but if you get medical "tourists" explicitly travelling for say cancer treatment?
  - Hozzle 9y ago
    If you are a legal resident, you are covered. If you are a visitor it depends on what deal your national UHC system has with the nation you are visitng. Normally there would be little reason to go to a foreign country for treatment.
  - RandomCSGeek 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pygy_ 9y ago

I'm a Belgian national, living in France (under the French health care regime). If I need medical assistance while I'm in in Spain or Germany, the care will be reimbursed per the local rules, by the French health care system. Quoting Wikipedia: The European Health Insurance Card (or EHIC) is issued free of charge and allows anyone who is insured by or covered by a statutory social security scheme of the EEA countries and Switzerland to receive medical treatment in another member state free or at a reduced cost, if that treatment becomes necessary during their visit (for example, due to illness or an accident), or if they have a chronic pre-existing condition which requires care such as kidney dialysis. The term of validity of the card varies according to the issuing country. The intention of the scheme is to allow people to continue their stay in a country without having to return home for medical care; as such, it does not cover people who have visited a country for the purpose of obtaining medical care, nor does it cover care, such as many types of dental treatment, which can be delayed until the individual returns to his or her home country. The costs not covered by self-liability fees are paid by the issuing country, which is usually the country of residence but may also be the country where one receives the most pension from.[1] It only covers healthcare which is normally covered by a statutory health care system in the visited country, so it does not render travel insurance obsolete. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Health_Insurance_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Health_Insurance_Card