6 ms·

It's not native, looks like an electron app

by PrimeDirective 8y ago

dri_ft 8y ago
Maybe 'native' is the wrong word, but I meant non-web-app.
- stephenr 8y ago
  Electron apps are web apps though.
  - wsy 8y ago
    Not sure if there is a common agreement about terminology, but my distinction is - web app: loads from a server and connects to a backend to perform its activities. Business logic is on the server. If at all, very limited offline capabilities - desktop app: is installed on the local machine, doesn't need any connection to a backend to work, works offline. I don't mind at all which technology the dev used to implement. Even nerdy metrics like memory and CPU consumption cannot be predicted from the used technology. So why should I care?
    - stephenr 8y ago
      “Web app: renders the entire interface in a browser engine” is a pretty simple definition.
      - themarkn 8y ago
        This is a simple definition but I think it lacks a couple important things: 1. It doesn't match the words. If that defines a "web app" then where does the web come in? I would think part of being a web app is that you can access it via the web and don't have to install it on your device. 2. Usefulness of the distinction to users. The specific nature of the bundled runtime for the code doesn't matter to anybody. It strikes me as pedantic to insist that because under the hood a thing is running in a browser we should call it a "web app". I think the most practical distinction is that web apps have a URL as the entrypoint. If you want to use it, you can visit the URL from any browser that supports the app. Web app requires a URL and a compatible browser. If instead you install the thing on your computer and run it from there, it's not a web app. It's a native app. No URL and it doesn't care what other browser you have installed because it comes with everything it needs. It's independent. How and why would users be expected to understand anything else?
        stephenr 8y ago
        The word web comes in when “browser” is short for “web browser”. I can’t believe I had to explain that. As for the second issue: users care because performance is worse, accessibility is by and large non-existent and platform features don’t work. For example: macOS has tabbed windows at the core - any document based app gets it automatically. How does that work out for electron apps?
        themarkn 8y ago
        > I can’t believe I had to explain that. You didn't really have to. I guess I made my point badly. The fact that a "web browser" is somewhere in the chain of what is reading an application does not mean that the application itself has anything to do with "the web", so I think calling it a web app is confusing and pointless. And again, seems like a technicality. > As for the second issue: users care because performance is worse, accessibility is by and large non-existent and platform features don’t work. I agree with this in general. It doesn't mean it helps the user to call it a web app. Maybe we need a third, generic term for electron apps and others like them. A name that refers to the potential differences in performance, accessibility, and performance that users may notice? Web app doesn't work for what you are talking about as far as I can tell. Of course this is an industry where terms and definitions change a lot.
        stephenr 8y ago
        > The fact that a "web browser" is somewhere in the chain of what is reading an application does not mean that the application itself has anything to do with "the web", so I think calling it a web app is confusing and pointless. In a discussion of 'native apps vs web apps' it absolutely makes a difference that Electron apps are rendered by a browser's web view - they're basically a web page rendered by a local source not remote, but without any of the sandboxing that proper browsers employ for security. > Maybe we need a third, generic term for electron apps and others like them. A name that refers to the potential differences in performance, accessibility, and performance that users may notice? Sure. Shit Apps (tm).
    - progx 8y ago
      And a web app runs on a local server, so where is the problem? On my linux "Apps" run on (X) server too.
    - IncRnd 8y ago
      > - web app: loads from a server and connects to a backend to perform its activities. Business logic is on the server. If at all, very limited offline capabilities You're confusing web apps and client/server apps. Web apps are generally thought of as apps written using web technologies. This means that a web app may not even interact with a back-end server, or a native app may exclusively interact with a back-end server.
      - wsy 8y ago
        I think this is not correct. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application, Web applications are applications running in a Web browser. The term was introduced to distinguish Web _apps_ from Web _pages_, not to distinguish _Web_ apps from _native_ apps.
        stephenr 8y ago
        > Web applications are applications running in a Web browser And Electron embeds an instance of Chromium, to provide a webview for the 'application' interface. How is that not a web app? It's written in HTML, CSS and JS, it runs inside a browser. Just because the user can't choose the browser doesn't mean shit. Users couldn't choose the browser to run a lot of Microsoft-stack Web Apps in the early 2000's either, because they only worked in MSIE.
        wsy 8y ago
        It's not a Web browser because you can't browse the Web with it. In my view, Electron does not embed a browser, it does embed a HTML/CSS/JS renderer.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Electron apps are web apps "sold" with Chrome. Like buy one, get two for free.
  - carbolymer 8y ago
    I'd prefer to get what I bought - without "free" Chrome.
    - heliodor 8y ago
      Analogy: when people are deadly allergic to peanuts, they make very very sure the food they buy doesn't contain peanuts before buying it. If they can't get an answer, they go buy food from someone who can answer their question.
  - rootlocus 8y ago
    The OP clearly means not hosted remotely / not requiring a server to set up, but somehow everyone thinks this is a great opportunity to mention that since it uses the same underlying front-end technology, there's no distinction, and it's actually worse.
    - dri_ft 8y ago
      Good thing this is hacker news, or I might have missed out on a barely-relevant pile-on of commenters letting me know how terrible Electron is!
chrismorgan 8y ago
Bear in mind that any email client will need an HTML engine of some form for rendering HTML emails (even if it doesn’t use it for the entire UI), unless it makes the radical decision of being text-only.

It's not native, looks like an electron app

dri_ft 8y ago

Maybe 'native' is the wrong word, but I meant non-web-app.

stephenr 8y ago
Electron apps are web apps though.
- wsy 8y ago
  Not sure if there is a common agreement about terminology, but my distinction is - web app: loads from a server and connects to a backend to perform its activities. Business logic is on the server. If at all, very limited offline capabilities - desktop app: is installed on the local machine, doesn't need any connection to a backend to work, works offline. I don't mind at all which technology the dev used to implement. Even nerdy metrics like memory and CPU consumption cannot be predicted from the used technology. So why should I care?
  - stephenr 8y ago
    “Web app: renders the entire interface in a browser engine” is a pretty simple definition.
    - themarkn 8y ago
      This is a simple definition but I think it lacks a couple important things: 1. It doesn't match the words. If that defines a "web app" then where does the web come in? I would think part of being a web app is that you can access it via the web and don't have to install it on your device. 2. Usefulness of the distinction to users. The specific nature of the bundled runtime for the code doesn't matter to anybody. It strikes me as pedantic to insist that because under the hood a thing is running in a browser we should call it a "web app". I think the most practical distinction is that web apps have a URL as the entrypoint. If you want to use it, you can visit the URL from any browser that supports the app. Web app requires a URL and a compatible browser. If instead you install the thing on your computer and run it from there, it's not a web app. It's a native app. No URL and it doesn't care what other browser you have installed because it comes with everything it needs. It's independent. How and why would users be expected to understand anything else?
      - stephenr 8y ago
        The word web comes in when “browser” is short for “web browser”. I can’t believe I had to explain that. As for the second issue: users care because performance is worse, accessibility is by and large non-existent and platform features don’t work. For example: macOS has tabbed windows at the core - any document based app gets it automatically. How does that work out for electron apps?
        themarkn 8y ago
        > I can’t believe I had to explain that. You didn't really have to. I guess I made my point badly. The fact that a "web browser" is somewhere in the chain of what is reading an application does not mean that the application itself has anything to do with "the web", so I think calling it a web app is confusing and pointless. And again, seems like a technicality. > As for the second issue: users care because performance is worse, accessibility is by and large non-existent and platform features don’t work. I agree with this in general. It doesn't mean it helps the user to call it a web app. Maybe we need a third, generic term for electron apps and others like them. A name that refers to the potential differences in performance, accessibility, and performance that users may notice? Web app doesn't work for what you are talking about as far as I can tell. Of course this is an industry where terms and definitions change a lot.
        stephenr 8y ago
        > The fact that a "web browser" is somewhere in the chain of what is reading an application does not mean that the application itself has anything to do with "the web", so I think calling it a web app is confusing and pointless. In a discussion of 'native apps vs web apps' it absolutely makes a difference that Electron apps are rendered by a browser's web view - they're basically a web page rendered by a local source not remote, but without any of the sandboxing that proper browsers employ for security. > Maybe we need a third, generic term for electron apps and others like them. A name that refers to the potential differences in performance, accessibility, and performance that users may notice? Sure. Shit Apps (tm).
  - progx 8y ago
    And a web app runs on a local server, so where is the problem? On my linux "Apps" run on (X) server too.
  - IncRnd 8y ago
    > - web app: loads from a server and connects to a backend to perform its activities. Business logic is on the server. If at all, very limited offline capabilities You're confusing web apps and client/server apps. Web apps are generally thought of as apps written using web technologies. This means that a web app may not even interact with a back-end server, or a native app may exclusively interact with a back-end server.
    - wsy 8y ago
      I think this is not correct. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application, Web applications are applications running in a Web browser. The term was introduced to distinguish Web _apps_ from Web _pages_, not to distinguish _Web_ apps from _native_ apps.
      - stephenr 8y ago
        > Web applications are applications running in a Web browser And Electron embeds an instance of Chromium, to provide a webview for the 'application' interface. How is that not a web app? It's written in HTML, CSS and JS, it runs inside a browser. Just because the user can't choose the browser doesn't mean shit. Users couldn't choose the browser to run a lot of Microsoft-stack Web Apps in the early 2000's either, because they only worked in MSIE.
        wsy 8y ago
        It's not a Web browser because you can't browse the Web with it. In my view, Electron does not embed a browser, it does embed a HTML/CSS/JS renderer.
pjmlp 8y ago
Electron apps are web apps "sold" with Chrome. Like buy one, get two for free.
- carbolymer 8y ago
  I'd prefer to get what I bought - without "free" Chrome.
  - heliodor 8y ago
    Analogy: when people are deadly allergic to peanuts, they make very very sure the food they buy doesn't contain peanuts before buying it. If they can't get an answer, they go buy food from someone who can answer their question.
- rootlocus 8y ago
  The OP clearly means not hosted remotely / not requiring a server to set up, but somehow everyone thinks this is a great opportunity to mention that since it uses the same underlying front-end technology, there's no distinction, and it's actually worse.
  - dri_ft 8y ago
    Good thing this is hacker news, or I might have missed out on a barely-relevant pile-on of commenters letting me know how terrible Electron is!

chrismorgan 8y ago

Bear in mind that any email client will need an HTML engine of some form for rendering HTML emails (even if it doesn’t use it for the entire UI), unless it makes the radical decision of being text-only.