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I followed the guy on twitter for half a year. Shallow, rumbling and full of shit. It’s kinda sad picture, with all the big words. Counterterrorism, CIA, Police

I followed the guy on twitter for half a year. Shallow, rumbling and full of shit. It’s kinda sad picture, with all the big words. Counterterrorism, CIA, Police, and now mass media via new Yorker.

fapjacks 8y ago
Just my opinion, but virtually every person I've ever met working in "State Department" operations is some breed of unlikable. "Shallow ... and full of shit" (with an enormous ego) could be a one-liner describing a lot of those folks. That's not to say they're all seedy spies. They just share aspects of a certain profile that isn't what you'd consider to be a paragon of wholesome goodness. And this is going to sound weird, but usually also a kind of ironic naivete about the world that reminds of you of the goody-two-shoes from school. The kind of person that tattles as an adult.
- itronitron 8y ago
  Well, I agree that there are certainly some of those but they tend to be the most visible as a result of their personal characteristics that you mention, and that is true for many organizations. For a variety of reasons, the people that are doing the interesting stuff typically don't draw much attention to themselves.
  - fapjacks 8y ago
    Certainly. I made friends from those days that I still hang out with today, and who made me reconsider whether or not I'd ever join one of those organizations. But I was speaking in sweeping generalities that represent my own experiences in dealing with those folks over a number of years.
- Retric 8y ago
  Most intelegent people realize counter terorism is a vast waste of resources and do something else with their lives. What's left is people that have a specific bent.
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Are you sure you mean the State Department? The State Department handles diplomacy, not usually spying or defense. (Though I'm sure there are CIA spies working under diplomatic cover) The staffers I've known at State were academic types or bureaucrats. If I were to criticize them, I would say they were excessively cynical, not naive.
  - steve19 8y ago
    Working for State is a euphemism. It's who certain people claim to be working for when they actually work in intelligence or covert operations. For example overseas embassy CIA staff. In my experience it's quite common and usually said in a way to indicate they don't actually work for State but can't/won't say who they actually work for.
    - ataturk 8y ago
      The embassy in Benghazi was mostly there to operate a gun/weapons running operation involving Khaddafy's (Quadaffi's hell if I know) former arsenal through Egypt and into Syria and elsewhere. The people that did all this have massive, massive blood on their hands. Do I even need to say the Clintons and their "Foundation" are neck deep in the blood?
  - gm-conspiracy 8y ago
    It is fiction, but take a look at 'Patriot' on Amazon Prime. Also, the character James Reese from 'From Paris with Love'.
- gm-conspiracy 8y ago
  Agreed, and anecdotally, I had a college roommate obsessed with wanting to become a CIA operative. I had to call the police on him after he stole my TV when moving out.
  - itronitron 8y ago
    In 8th grade, during one of my classes, we all took a 'career aptitude test' and several of the other students were openly asking each other, and the teachers, how they should answer the questions so that they could become a spy. I think, or at least hope, that they all lost interest before going to college.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    did he make it to the CIA?
    - MisterTea 8y ago
      If by CIA you mean Criminal Internment Area, I'd wager yes.
  - ataturk 8y ago
    Well, yes, he has the right kind of moral compass to work there, then. I had a graduate school colleague, former Navy guy, who went to work at the CIA. This was right during the run up to Gulf War II, you know? The one that was completely optional and unnecessary? Anyhow, his ENTIRE rationale for wanting to go work there was that he wanted "his war" which he felt he was entitled to having. Kind of weird, isn't it? There are actually guys out there who want there to be wars so that they can experience them in some safe, disassociated way, as in, not on the front lines where the carnage and dying takes place, but from behind a desk, or perhaps on a base in the Green Zone or something. The whole MIC is made up of people like him. I truly despise all of them.
- alexilliamson 8y ago
  I feel like I know exactly what you mean. That character is epitomized in Hank Schrader from Breaking Bad.
  - gojomo 8y ago
    Did you finish the series? Because "ASAC Schrader" ultimately comes off a bit better than his initial caricature...
- tazmin 8y ago
  I did a few internships in college with the State Department, in an agency similar to the one mentioned in the article. You describe it very accurately, and summarize my primary reason for not returning full-time after I graduated. In my opinion, the clearance process selects for three things: 1) those who are extremely rule-abiding -- often, as you describe, the "goody-two-shoes" from school. For example, most of these people have never touched drugs (since the clearance process involves polygraphs on drug use, as well as constant drug checks), and they often have strong disdain for those who have. These are not qualities I think one should have when they are dealing with diverse types of people and organizations. Someone in this position should have knowledge and nuance when it comes to drugs, even if they personally have never used them. Also, they definitely select for people who are exactly the "tattle tales" you allude to. I won't get into the details of the sort of questions they ask that select for such things, but I'm sure you can use your imagination. 2) People who are not receiving offers elsewhere in industry. The clearance process takes forever, sometimes can be up to three years to get a clearance. For college students, they would "expedite" it to take 6 months, but regardless -- most people with any marketable skills get snatched up by a better-paying, faster moving organization. 3) Most importantly, I think it selects for the type of egotistical person you are describing. Many of the people I encountered during my time there were very macho, patronizing types, who think they've "seen it all". To be sure, some of them have been through a lot of difficult things, and I don't mean to downplay the things they've seen. But there are probably a good number who haven't, and just like to act as though they're really tough. My theory on this is that people with smaller egos get more nervous during the polygraph process and are thus more likely to fail (since nerves are often the reason people appear to be lying, due to fast heart-rate, twitches, etc).
  - pm90 8y ago
    This seems like a recipe for disaster. I read "The Wise Men" and was under the impression that the State department was staffed with incredibly smart folks who served out of a sense of duty to the Country rather than as a job of last resort. Makes me wonder: how do you think the State Department would have changed under the leadership of Tillerson and now Pompeo?
    - 8y ago
OutThisLife 8y ago
Can you link some examples? Just browsed his feed and he seems pretty normal.
- Voyage_wanderer 8y ago
  I can’t without going back, I stopped following him at about his graduation from police academy time. He says all the right things, however there are little details which just wouldn’t add up. Like his work history :). Why there is the restart from 0 every time he changes his course? And the guy is undeniably an attention seeker.
sailfast 8y ago
Weird. I had the opposite experience. He's seemed to be working pretty hard to enforce the law with empathy while also trying to understand the broader implications for our society.
- Voyage_wanderer 8y ago
  Well. At about every sail club there is a guy who knows and says all the right things. Helpful and willing to share, bringing an owe. Until he gets at helm. Over my brief following I had the growing suspicion that He is the guy. I might be wrong, but his sublime attention seeking become too annoying... Just think about the article. You are frikking street cop fresh from the Academy. He just graduated. How being featured in New Yorker will help you working with other cops? It won’t. So, apparently guy is not thinking about his job...
  - sailfast 8y ago
    Fair point!
  - snowwrestler 8y ago
    He has theories about how policing should be done, and unlike most people with theories about how policing should be done, he is actually working as a police officer to see how things are in real life. And he's reporting back to the rest of us about it. No offense to your sailing club experience, but I don't think you're in much of a position to judge him. Not that you have to follow him on Twitter, of course...

I followed the guy on twitter for half a year. Shallow, rumbling and full of shit. It’s kinda sad picture, with all the big words. Counterterrorism, CIA, Police, and now mass media via new Yorker.

fapjacks 8y ago

Just my opinion, but virtually every person I've ever met working in "State Department" operations is some breed of unlikable. "Shallow ... and full of shit" (with an enormous ego) could be a one-liner describing a lot of those folks. That's not to say they're all seedy spies. They just share aspects of a certain profile that isn't what you'd consider to be a paragon of wholesome goodness. And this is going to sound weird, but usually also a kind of ironic naivete about the world that reminds of you of the goody-two-shoes from school. The kind of person that tattles as an adult.

itronitron 8y ago
Well, I agree that there are certainly some of those but they tend to be the most visible as a result of their personal characteristics that you mention, and that is true for many organizations. For a variety of reasons, the people that are doing the interesting stuff typically don't draw much attention to themselves.
- fapjacks 8y ago
  Certainly. I made friends from those days that I still hang out with today, and who made me reconsider whether or not I'd ever join one of those organizations. But I was speaking in sweeping generalities that represent my own experiences in dealing with those folks over a number of years.
Retric 8y ago
Most intelegent people realize counter terorism is a vast waste of resources and do something else with their lives. What's left is people that have a specific bent.
ForHackernews 8y ago
Are you sure you mean the State Department? The State Department handles diplomacy, not usually spying or defense. (Though I'm sure there are CIA spies working under diplomatic cover) The staffers I've known at State were academic types or bureaucrats. If I were to criticize them, I would say they were excessively cynical, not naive.
- steve19 8y ago
  Working for State is a euphemism. It's who certain people claim to be working for when they actually work in intelligence or covert operations. For example overseas embassy CIA staff. In my experience it's quite common and usually said in a way to indicate they don't actually work for State but can't/won't say who they actually work for.
  - ataturk 8y ago
    The embassy in Benghazi was mostly there to operate a gun/weapons running operation involving Khaddafy's (Quadaffi's hell if I know) former arsenal through Egypt and into Syria and elsewhere. The people that did all this have massive, massive blood on their hands. Do I even need to say the Clintons and their "Foundation" are neck deep in the blood?
- gm-conspiracy 8y ago
  It is fiction, but take a look at 'Patriot' on Amazon Prime. Also, the character James Reese from 'From Paris with Love'.
gm-conspiracy 8y ago
Agreed, and anecdotally, I had a college roommate obsessed with wanting to become a CIA operative. I had to call the police on him after he stole my TV when moving out.
- itronitron 8y ago
  In 8th grade, during one of my classes, we all took a 'career aptitude test' and several of the other students were openly asking each other, and the teachers, how they should answer the questions so that they could become a spy. I think, or at least hope, that they all lost interest before going to college.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  did he make it to the CIA?
  - MisterTea 8y ago
    If by CIA you mean Criminal Internment Area, I'd wager yes.
- ataturk 8y ago
  Well, yes, he has the right kind of moral compass to work there, then. I had a graduate school colleague, former Navy guy, who went to work at the CIA. This was right during the run up to Gulf War II, you know? The one that was completely optional and unnecessary? Anyhow, his ENTIRE rationale for wanting to go work there was that he wanted "his war" which he felt he was entitled to having. Kind of weird, isn't it? There are actually guys out there who want there to be wars so that they can experience them in some safe, disassociated way, as in, not on the front lines where the carnage and dying takes place, but from behind a desk, or perhaps on a base in the Green Zone or something. The whole MIC is made up of people like him. I truly despise all of them.
alexilliamson 8y ago
I feel like I know exactly what you mean. That character is epitomized in Hank Schrader from Breaking Bad.
- gojomo 8y ago
  Did you finish the series? Because "ASAC Schrader" ultimately comes off a bit better than his initial caricature...
tazmin 8y ago
I did a few internships in college with the State Department, in an agency similar to the one mentioned in the article. You describe it very accurately, and summarize my primary reason for not returning full-time after I graduated. In my opinion, the clearance process selects for three things: 1) those who are extremely rule-abiding -- often, as you describe, the "goody-two-shoes" from school. For example, most of these people have never touched drugs (since the clearance process involves polygraphs on drug use, as well as constant drug checks), and they often have strong disdain for those who have. These are not qualities I think one should have when they are dealing with diverse types of people and organizations. Someone in this position should have knowledge and nuance when it comes to drugs, even if they personally have never used them. Also, they definitely select for people who are exactly the "tattle tales" you allude to. I won't get into the details of the sort of questions they ask that select for such things, but I'm sure you can use your imagination. 2) People who are not receiving offers elsewhere in industry. The clearance process takes forever, sometimes can be up to three years to get a clearance. For college students, they would "expedite" it to take 6 months, but regardless -- most people with any marketable skills get snatched up by a better-paying, faster moving organization. 3) Most importantly, I think it selects for the type of egotistical person you are describing. Many of the people I encountered during my time there were very macho, patronizing types, who think they've "seen it all". To be sure, some of them have been through a lot of difficult things, and I don't mean to downplay the things they've seen. But there are probably a good number who haven't, and just like to act as though they're really tough. My theory on this is that people with smaller egos get more nervous during the polygraph process and are thus more likely to fail (since nerves are often the reason people appear to be lying, due to fast heart-rate, twitches, etc).
- pm90 8y ago
  This seems like a recipe for disaster. I read "The Wise Men" and was under the impression that the State department was staffed with incredibly smart folks who served out of a sense of duty to the Country rather than as a job of last resort. Makes me wonder: how do you think the State Department would have changed under the leadership of Tillerson and now Pompeo?
  - 8y ago

OutThisLife 8y ago

Can you link some examples? Just browsed his feed and he seems pretty normal.

Voyage_wanderer 8y ago
I can’t without going back, I stopped following him at about his graduation from police academy time. He says all the right things, however there are little details which just wouldn’t add up. Like his work history :). Why there is the restart from 0 every time he changes his course? And the guy is undeniably an attention seeker.

sailfast 8y ago

Weird. I had the opposite experience. He's seemed to be working pretty hard to enforce the law with empathy while also trying to understand the broader implications for our society.

Voyage_wanderer 8y ago
Well. At about every sail club there is a guy who knows and says all the right things. Helpful and willing to share, bringing an owe. Until he gets at helm. Over my brief following I had the growing suspicion that He is the guy. I might be wrong, but his sublime attention seeking become too annoying... Just think about the article. You are frikking street cop fresh from the Academy. He just graduated. How being featured in New Yorker will help you working with other cops? It won’t. So, apparently guy is not thinking about his job...
- sailfast 8y ago
  Fair point!
- snowwrestler 8y ago
  He has theories about how policing should be done, and unlike most people with theories about how policing should be done, he is actually working as a police officer to see how things are in real life. And he's reporting back to the rest of us about it. No offense to your sailing club experience, but I don't think you're in much of a position to judge him. Not that you have to follow him on Twitter, of course...