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This is one thing I don't entirely understand in terms of political alignment. The one side that is supposed to be about the little guy seems to support this sy

This is one thing I don't entirely understand in terms of political alignment. The one side that is supposed to be about the little guy seems to support this system of immigration which leads quite directly to depressed wages and exploitation of this sort. Even in cases where the 'guest workers' are not so ridiculously underpaid, companies still exploit the fact that these workers generally have to have this job or they may be forced to leave the nation losing any hopes of gaining permanent residency or citizenship. In other words when the company tells them to jump, their only question is going to be how high - compared to an increasingly 'mobile' domestic workforce.

booblik 8y ago
Actually H1B is easily transferable.
- jarsj 8y ago
  Not really in these cases. The talent is low-skill and they will have trouble finding high-skill jobs if they don't partake in the scam.
candiodari 8y ago
This is why socialist in the vast majority of the 20th century were vehemently anti-immigration, and the right was pro-immigration. Immigration destroys labor, and rewards capital. You'd think "leftists" would have a problem with that. Or maybe it's just the pendulum swining back I guess. When democrats and republicans were young, new, parties, republicans were definitely left-wing and democrats were right-wing. Maybe it's just switching around again.
- biocomputation 8y ago
  This leftist is is vehemently and resolutely against H1-B. I've posted about it many times here on HN. I feel like access to good jobs and housing are bedrock social justice issues for American workers. I've been called a racist, even though I certainly don't care where the H1-B workers come from. If it were up to me, I would literally line up the planes and send them all home. American tech companies are basically the richest companies on the planet, and they can well afford to hire and train American workers. In light of growing income inequality, it makes me sick to think that so many of the best paying jobs in the economy go to foreign nationals. Oh, and, as I've said many times before, non-profits, which include basically all hospitals and universities in the entire country are exempt from the annual cap. H1-B produces terribly unjust outcome for American workers.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    I don't get why anti-H1B attitudes get so consistently downvoted on HN. I mean, supposedly HN is leftist. Ostensibly people here are smart and care about the poor. How come smart people aren't able to see how this system works, when it keeps and keeps getting explained how it's exploitative ? And yet, the words "anti" and "h1b" in the same post ? -5 karma, at least !
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Immigration destroys labor Free migration empowers labor in the same way that free movement of capital empowers capital; real immigration systems in capitalist regimes tend not to favor free and reciprocal movement but instead are regulated to favor domestic capital, but it's a foolish leftist that is opposed to free migration rather than migration regulated to favor capital. OTOH, H-1B is one of the most blatantly capital-serving elements of the current US immigration[0] system. [0] well, it's really a guest worker, not immigration, program, though it's possible for people to move into the immigration system directly from it.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    That's an illusion small business owners keep putting forth. It is a well established fact in economics that free movement of capital will concentrate the capital in fewer hands. So in reality, free movement of capital is bad for 99.99% good for 0.01%. However, I get it, it is a very popular illusion among business owners that this is not in fact true. That they could do better if they could just put their business in more places, deploy their money and capital more flexibly. 99% of them are wrong. Of course, you wouldn't be running a business if you didn't think you could do this, I get it. But time and time again it is shown: 99% of them can't.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      Capital moves freely. Labor doesn't, or can't. You're ignoring the previous message's point.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > That's an illusion small business owners keep putting forth. No, it's a fact, which is why... > It is a well established fact in economics that free movement of capital will concentrate the capital in fewer hands. Yes, the nature of capital is such that policies which empower capital also accelerate it's concentration, whereas policies which empower labor decelerate (or even reverse) the concentration of capital.
      - 8y ago
- mdeg 8y ago
  The grouping of "leftists" as a singular group doesn't make sense. The economically left person might say that work visa programs are just ways for capital to cheapen labour by exploiting foreign workers who have less opportunity to not be exploited. The socially left person might say that work visa programs provide diversity and opportunity to people from less developed countries. Similarly, an economically right person might say that work visas are necessary to make certain kinds of labour affordable for business owners. A socially right person might say that work visa programs are abhorrent because they bring foreigners into the country. "Left" and "right" are broad tents - they're sure to contain conflicting or mutually exclusive viewpoints on some issues.
neuronexmachina 8y ago
Do you have a source for your claims about political alignment and skilled foreign-worker policy? My impression was that many Democrats want green cards for those who earn advanced STEM degrees in the US, while Republican policy has recently been more protectionist/nativist. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3096103/it-careers/the-h-1b-positions-of-clinton-and-trump.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3096103/it-careers/the...

booblik 8y ago

Actually H1B is easily transferable.

jarsj 8y ago
Not really in these cases. The talent is low-skill and they will have trouble finding high-skill jobs if they don't partake in the scam.

candiodari 8y ago

This is why socialist in the vast majority of the 20th century were vehemently anti-immigration, and the right was pro-immigration. Immigration destroys labor, and rewards capital. You'd think "leftists" would have a problem with that. Or maybe it's just the pendulum swining back I guess. When democrats and republicans were young, new, parties, republicans were definitely left-wing and democrats were right-wing. Maybe it's just switching around again.

biocomputation 8y ago
This leftist is is vehemently and resolutely against H1-B. I've posted about it many times here on HN. I feel like access to good jobs and housing are bedrock social justice issues for American workers. I've been called a racist, even though I certainly don't care where the H1-B workers come from. If it were up to me, I would literally line up the planes and send them all home. American tech companies are basically the richest companies on the planet, and they can well afford to hire and train American workers. In light of growing income inequality, it makes me sick to think that so many of the best paying jobs in the economy go to foreign nationals. Oh, and, as I've said many times before, non-profits, which include basically all hospitals and universities in the entire country are exempt from the annual cap. H1-B produces terribly unjust outcome for American workers.
- candiodari 8y ago
  I don't get why anti-H1B attitudes get so consistently downvoted on HN. I mean, supposedly HN is leftist. Ostensibly people here are smart and care about the poor. How come smart people aren't able to see how this system works, when it keeps and keeps getting explained how it's exploitative ? And yet, the words "anti" and "h1b" in the same post ? -5 karma, at least !
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Immigration destroys labor Free migration empowers labor in the same way that free movement of capital empowers capital; real immigration systems in capitalist regimes tend not to favor free and reciprocal movement but instead are regulated to favor domestic capital, but it's a foolish leftist that is opposed to free migration rather than migration regulated to favor capital. OTOH, H-1B is one of the most blatantly capital-serving elements of the current US immigration[0] system. [0] well, it's really a guest worker, not immigration, program, though it's possible for people to move into the immigration system directly from it.
- candiodari 8y ago
  That's an illusion small business owners keep putting forth. It is a well established fact in economics that free movement of capital will concentrate the capital in fewer hands. So in reality, free movement of capital is bad for 99.99% good for 0.01%. However, I get it, it is a very popular illusion among business owners that this is not in fact true. That they could do better if they could just put their business in more places, deploy their money and capital more flexibly. 99% of them are wrong. Of course, you wouldn't be running a business if you didn't think you could do this, I get it. But time and time again it is shown: 99% of them can't.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Capital moves freely. Labor doesn't, or can't. You're ignoring the previous message's point.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > That's an illusion small business owners keep putting forth. No, it's a fact, which is why... > It is a well established fact in economics that free movement of capital will concentrate the capital in fewer hands. Yes, the nature of capital is such that policies which empower capital also accelerate it's concentration, whereas policies which empower labor decelerate (or even reverse) the concentration of capital.
    - 8y ago
mdeg 8y ago
The grouping of "leftists" as a singular group doesn't make sense. The economically left person might say that work visa programs are just ways for capital to cheapen labour by exploiting foreign workers who have less opportunity to not be exploited. The socially left person might say that work visa programs provide diversity and opportunity to people from less developed countries. Similarly, an economically right person might say that work visas are necessary to make certain kinds of labour affordable for business owners. A socially right person might say that work visa programs are abhorrent because they bring foreigners into the country. "Left" and "right" are broad tents - they're sure to contain conflicting or mutually exclusive viewpoints on some issues.

neuronexmachina 8y ago

Do you have a source for your claims about political alignment and skilled foreign-worker policy? My impression was that many Democrats want green cards for those who earn advanced STEM degrees in the US, while Republican policy has recently been more protectionist/nativist. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3096103/it-careers/the-h-1b-positions-of-clinton-and-trump.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3096103/it-careers/the...