4 ms·

Shocker. Here’s what happens in Melbourne, Australia. I used to work for one of the “big 4” banks. 1. Bank outsources to vendor. Typically IBM. “It’ll be cheap

Shocker. Here’s what happens in Melbourne, Australia. I used to work for one of the “big 4” banks. 1. Bank outsources to vendor. Typically IBM. “It’ll be cheaper!” 2. IBM is, initially, cheaper - because all of their staff are in India of course. 3. But they can’t do the job from India because they need to be here talking to their colleagues at the bank. 4. So they get flown to Melbourne, but still on Indian wages, where the poor souls live ten to an apartment because they can’t afford anything else. 5. The bank has now saved money by “offshoring” despite the workers actually being here in Australia. It’s a disgrace and I have no idea why it isn’t in the news.

49bc 9y ago
If I was living in India I’d probably take that deal.
- manjunaths 9y ago
  I know that it is a common belief that India is 3rd world country and people would jump at any chance to get out. Not all of India is like that and not all of us are wage slaves doing menial jobs in IT. Some of us have a better quality of life, friends, family, culture and social life. Not to mention the amazing home food.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    Agreed. I am a software engineer in Bangalore. And quality of life is good enough that I would consider moving to US only for salary > $100k.
    - 49bc 9y ago
      Are you the exception or the rule for the population?
      - dingo_bat 9y ago
        I'd say most software engineers in Bangalore would feel like me. Not the general population though, remember we are still a 3rd world country.
  - paxys 9y ago
    It should be pretty obvious that engineers stuck in offshore IT contracting mills are in the bottom tier. All the best Indian engineers are getting paid top dollar at companies like Google and Facebook or are doing well enough on their own in India.
  - always_good 9y ago
    Some people suggest the same when they hear I moved to Mexico. "Wait, everyone wants to get out of Mexico though. Why would you go there? My gardener cut off his testicle to come." These are the sort of people who most desperately need to leave the tit to meet other people in other cultures but in my experience they are the least likely to. On the other hand, the people leaving Mexico to be taken advantage of in the States are the most desperate. Just like these Indians. So if those are the only people you hear about from Mexico or India, you don't get an accurate picture.
  - ggg9990 9y ago
    But most people anywhere would jump at a chance to live in another place for a couple of years even if it's ten to a room. I did that kind of shit when I was in my early 20s and don't regret it.
  - sanxiyn 9y ago
    Not all of India is like that, but there are enough people who would jump, and giving them a chance to jump seems to me a good thing.
  - 49bc 9y ago
    I think this would be a big step up for more than 90% of the population, do you agree?
wslh 9y ago
I know another variation involving a different company and engineers from another country. They incentivize young engineers to go and work for companies like Google on-site. Since it is an amazing experience to travel and work abroad they don't care about additional work benefits.
sanxiyn 9y ago
As long as Indian staffs are okay with the deal (and I think they are) I think this is a good thing. One small step to open border.
- candiodari 9y ago
  This is exactly why open borders are not ok. Abuse of workers is NOT an acceptable cost.
  - yen223 9y ago
    Restrictive visa requirements is the reason why workers are willing to put up with the abuse in the first place. Workers have a better shot at demanding a fair wage if they didn't have to face deportation if they spoke up.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - candiodari 9y ago
      Okay let's run that train of thought through, because ... you are VERY wrong. What would happen if we opened the floodgates entirely ? Let's be 100% idealistic and just assume everyone reciprocates, China and the like magically become non-dictatorships, and so forth. Rule of law in rural Madagascar magically becomes as reliable as in the central cities of Switzerland. We just equalize the labor market worldwide. What happens ? Well wages everywhere strongly trend to the worldwide average wage, and benefits. Okay ... so what is the worldwide average ? 1480 PPP$ or 600 actual $ per month. (source: ILO) (note: I would argue there are several reasons why this is too high, for instance this isn't a real average. This is pre-tax income of employed persons, and it's the mean: 80% or so of the population actually earns less than that. Pensioners, kids, disabled ... all earn $0 in these statistics) And, by the way, you might think, this would make it cheaper to live in those places with high-paying job, but even a cursory analysis of what happens in Delhi will quickly correct you: no it won't. Places like Melbourne would likely actually become more expensive if you open the floodgates. WHO would this be a desirable outcome for ? Well, there's 3 groups: 1) Obviously for the people currently in high-paying places this would be an extreme negative. They would face 60-70-80% pay cut without a real reduction in living expenses. 2) For people that would immigrate to those places it would be a slight improvement, or a wash. They would, after all, not improve that much in wages, would be far away from where they want to be and have to pay much higher living expenses. (and initially it would probably be a strong negative, as an outsourced wage pays for a lot of luxury in India and doesn't even approach the poverty level in Melbourne, but that's what they'd get. And with wages like that, they wouldn't be able to leave) 3) For the people staying behind this would be a strong negative. A pretty decent portion of the market would disappear (because people drive GDP, more than any other factor), which would mean that most industries would downsize. And that's to say nothing of China's and India's outsourcing sectors. Those would be utterly devastated. A lot of people in Silicon Valley fall in the category that would benefit from moving (after all, that's why they're there), so they think that if it were to repeat, they would once again benefit. Even if that is a correct assessment (I don't think so, many Silicon Valley positions would be fine with dont-care-about-IT seat-fillers), that is still a tiny, tiny group. The vast, vast majority of people would fall into groups 1 and 3.

49bc 9y ago

If I was living in India I’d probably take that deal.

manjunaths 9y ago
I know that it is a common belief that India is 3rd world country and people would jump at any chance to get out. Not all of India is like that and not all of us are wage slaves doing menial jobs in IT. Some of us have a better quality of life, friends, family, culture and social life. Not to mention the amazing home food.
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  Agreed. I am a software engineer in Bangalore. And quality of life is good enough that I would consider moving to US only for salary > $100k.
  - 49bc 9y ago
    Are you the exception or the rule for the population?
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      I'd say most software engineers in Bangalore would feel like me. Not the general population though, remember we are still a 3rd world country.
- paxys 9y ago
  It should be pretty obvious that engineers stuck in offshore IT contracting mills are in the bottom tier. All the best Indian engineers are getting paid top dollar at companies like Google and Facebook or are doing well enough on their own in India.
- always_good 9y ago
  Some people suggest the same when they hear I moved to Mexico. "Wait, everyone wants to get out of Mexico though. Why would you go there? My gardener cut off his testicle to come." These are the sort of people who most desperately need to leave the tit to meet other people in other cultures but in my experience they are the least likely to. On the other hand, the people leaving Mexico to be taken advantage of in the States are the most desperate. Just like these Indians. So if those are the only people you hear about from Mexico or India, you don't get an accurate picture.
- ggg9990 9y ago
  But most people anywhere would jump at a chance to live in another place for a couple of years even if it's ten to a room. I did that kind of shit when I was in my early 20s and don't regret it.
- sanxiyn 9y ago
  Not all of India is like that, but there are enough people who would jump, and giving them a chance to jump seems to me a good thing.
- 49bc 9y ago
  I think this would be a big step up for more than 90% of the population, do you agree?

wslh 9y ago

I know another variation involving a different company and engineers from another country. They incentivize young engineers to go and work for companies like Google on-site. Since it is an amazing experience to travel and work abroad they don't care about additional work benefits.

sanxiyn 9y ago

As long as Indian staffs are okay with the deal (and I think they are) I think this is a good thing. One small step to open border.

candiodari 9y ago
This is exactly why open borders are not ok. Abuse of workers is NOT an acceptable cost.
- yen223 9y ago
  Restrictive visa requirements is the reason why workers are willing to put up with the abuse in the first place. Workers have a better shot at demanding a fair wage if they didn't have to face deportation if they spoke up.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - candiodari 9y ago
    Okay let's run that train of thought through, because ... you are VERY wrong. What would happen if we opened the floodgates entirely ? Let's be 100% idealistic and just assume everyone reciprocates, China and the like magically become non-dictatorships, and so forth. Rule of law in rural Madagascar magically becomes as reliable as in the central cities of Switzerland. We just equalize the labor market worldwide. What happens ? Well wages everywhere strongly trend to the worldwide average wage, and benefits. Okay ... so what is the worldwide average ? 1480 PPP$ or 600 actual $ per month. (source: ILO) (note: I would argue there are several reasons why this is too high, for instance this isn't a real average. This is pre-tax income of employed persons, and it's the mean: 80% or so of the population actually earns less than that. Pensioners, kids, disabled ... all earn $0 in these statistics) And, by the way, you might think, this would make it cheaper to live in those places with high-paying job, but even a cursory analysis of what happens in Delhi will quickly correct you: no it won't. Places like Melbourne would likely actually become more expensive if you open the floodgates. WHO would this be a desirable outcome for ? Well, there's 3 groups: 1) Obviously for the people currently in high-paying places this would be an extreme negative. They would face 60-70-80% pay cut without a real reduction in living expenses. 2) For people that would immigrate to those places it would be a slight improvement, or a wash. They would, after all, not improve that much in wages, would be far away from where they want to be and have to pay much higher living expenses. (and initially it would probably be a strong negative, as an outsourced wage pays for a lot of luxury in India and doesn't even approach the poverty level in Melbourne, but that's what they'd get. And with wages like that, they wouldn't be able to leave) 3) For the people staying behind this would be a strong negative. A pretty decent portion of the market would disappear (because people drive GDP, more than any other factor), which would mean that most industries would downsize. And that's to say nothing of China's and India's outsourcing sectors. Those would be utterly devastated. A lot of people in Silicon Valley fall in the category that would benefit from moving (after all, that's why they're there), so they think that if it were to repeat, they would once again benefit. Even if that is a correct assessment (I don't think so, many Silicon Valley positions would be fine with dont-care-about-IT seat-fillers), that is still a tiny, tiny group. The vast, vast majority of people would fall into groups 1 and 3.