4 ms·

That's the entire point of domain fronting and collateral freedom: to make censorship as expensive as possible for oppresive regimes.

creddit 8y ago
I think it's quite clear what the point is from Signal's attempt at implementation of the theory as well as your freshly minted wiki page. That doesn't change the dubious nature of it. Putting other valuable services at risk for a single service's gain is clearly dubious.
- tonyztan 8y ago
  > "your Signal" Just to be clear, I am not affiliated with Signal in any way. I am just a user. > "your freshly minted wiki page" I am a regular contributor to Wikipedia, and I created the article on "collateral freedom" in January 2017[1] when I came across the topic because it satisfied Wikipedia's notability guidelines.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collateral_freedom&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collateral_freedo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability
  - creddit 8y ago
    That was a typo (now fixed). Didn't mean to imply you were involved with Signal
  - dang 8y ago
    You posted that Wikipedia link 4 times in this thread. That's a bit much, and also kind of dodgy to do without mentioning that you wrote it.
    - tonyztan 8y ago
      > "4 times in this thread. That's a bit much" Point taken, I'll be more careful in the future. > "kind of dodgy to do without mentioning that you wrote it" The article is completely neutral, cites reliable sources, has been reviewed by another editor[1], and abides by all Wikipedia policies. I do not personally gain anything from posting it here. I didn't think the fact that I initially created the article was relevant to this conversation, because for all intents and purposes, it does not make a difference.[2] The article meets Wikipedia's standards, and anyone is free to edit it subject to the applicable content policies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=Domain+fronting&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_tag_log=1&hide_review_log=1 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&typ... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_content
      - dang 8y ago
        I see your point, though it still feels a bit dodgy to me, and I suspect to many other HN readers. Fortunately it's a rare and borderline case so we don't need to worry about it too much.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
But Signal was doing all of this without Amazon's consent. I don't care how noble you think your cause is, dragging other people into your fight against their will is wrong, full stop.
DEFCON28 8y ago
So if you're throwing grenades and Molotov cocktails over a sovereign border, stand inside a crowd of children so they have to shoot them, too. Am I understanding you correctly?
- JackCh 8y ago
  Don't you think that's a needlessly offensive analogy? Signal is not using children to shield themselves from rifle fire.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
Collateral freedom is like using human shields. You unilaterally decide to involve other innocent people in your fight, and risk their well-being.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  The name even hints at that: it's freedom that rests on the targets unwillingness to inflict collateral damage. Which, questions of morality in the abstract and consent aside, seems to gamble pretty heavily on sensitivity the regimes of concern are decidedly not known for.
  - thecrash 8y ago
    They are sensitive to collateral damage, though, otherwise they could just turn off internet access. It's actually pretty easy for a state-level actor. Why do you think they don't?

creddit 8y ago

I think it's quite clear what the point is from Signal's attempt at implementation of the theory as well as your freshly minted wiki page. That doesn't change the dubious nature of it. Putting other valuable services at risk for a single service's gain is clearly dubious.

tonyztan 8y ago
> "your Signal" Just to be clear, I am not affiliated with Signal in any way. I am just a user. > "your freshly minted wiki page" I am a regular contributor to Wikipedia, and I created the article on "collateral freedom" in January 2017[1] when I came across the topic because it satisfied Wikipedia's notability guidelines.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collateral_freedom&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collateral_freedo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability
- creddit 8y ago
  That was a typo (now fixed). Didn't mean to imply you were involved with Signal
- dang 8y ago
  You posted that Wikipedia link 4 times in this thread. That's a bit much, and also kind of dodgy to do without mentioning that you wrote it.
  - tonyztan 8y ago
    > "4 times in this thread. That's a bit much" Point taken, I'll be more careful in the future. > "kind of dodgy to do without mentioning that you wrote it" The article is completely neutral, cites reliable sources, has been reviewed by another editor[1], and abides by all Wikipedia policies. I do not personally gain anything from posting it here. I didn't think the fact that I initially created the article was relevant to this conversation, because for all intents and purposes, it does not make a difference.[2] The article meets Wikipedia's standards, and anyone is free to edit it subject to the applicable content policies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=Domain+fronting&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_tag_log=1&hide_review_log=1 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&typ... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_content
    - dang 8y ago
      I see your point, though it still feels a bit dodgy to me, and I suspect to many other HN readers. Fortunately it's a rare and borderline case so we don't need to worry about it too much.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

But Signal was doing all of this without Amazon's consent. I don't care how noble you think your cause is, dragging other people into your fight against their will is wrong, full stop.

DEFCON28 8y ago

So if you're throwing grenades and Molotov cocktails over a sovereign border, stand inside a crowd of children so they have to shoot them, too. Am I understanding you correctly?

JackCh 8y ago
Don't you think that's a needlessly offensive analogy? Signal is not using children to shield themselves from rifle fire.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

Collateral freedom is like using human shields. You unilaterally decide to involve other innocent people in your fight, and risk their well-being.

dragonwriter 8y ago
The name even hints at that: it's freedom that rests on the targets unwillingness to inflict collateral damage. Which, questions of morality in the abstract and consent aside, seems to gamble pretty heavily on sensitivity the regimes of concern are decidedly not known for.
- thecrash 8y ago
  They are sensitive to collateral damage, though, otherwise they could just turn off internet access. It's actually pretty easy for a state-level actor. Why do you think they don't?