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I'm really disappointed by the downvotes that sithadmin, misterbowfinger, and I have been receiving in this thread. Let me restate the argument, not in favor o

I'm really disappointed by the downvotes that sithadmin, misterbowfinger, and I have been receiving in this thread. Let me restate the argument, not in favor of cheating but why it's not the moral issue that everyone makes it out to be: 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. 2. We only think it is a moral issue because it's been drilled into us since we were kids, and that we think it is not fair to those who don't cheat and devalues the value of their degree. 3. The current system is stupid. Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers. 4. Employers should be using other methods to screen prospective employees -- looking at past projects, word of mouth, etc. The sooner we can put to rest the notion that we should spend ages 6 through 22 in an artificial system that has no relation to the real world before we can enter the real world as functioning adults, the better.

eecsninja 8y ago
The haters are out in full force today. Why don't you post point-by-point refutals here instead of hiding behind your downvotes? Way to demonstrate that you're incapable of thinking outside the box that I mentioned in point #2.
trendia 8y ago
I disagree. Homework and exams have two purposes: 1. Help the student learn (by applying theory in homework and encouraging internalization for exams), and 2. Verifying that students have learned the material Cheating destroys both of those. A student can copy a solution to a general relativity problem, but that doesn't mean they understand it, and likewise they can obtain the exam before they take it and memorize the solutions, but then the exam only measures whether they've memorized the solution. That is, cheating completely eliminates the purpose of obtaining an education.
- eecsninja 8y ago
  And why do we care in a real-world sense whether this student has cheated in general relativity? If that person goes to a physics lab, he would be found out eventually. In a real-world sense, cheating hurts nobody except the person doing it, if even that.
  - trendia 8y ago
    Sure, they might be found out when they fail their oral quals, but it would be much easier for everyone if there were a much faster way to find them out, such as a low grade from a school that strictly enforces anti-cheating policies.
  - shabble 8y ago
    Would you want to be that surgeon's first patient?
  - alonmower 8y ago
    That's not true at all. One example (there are more): Say a student cheats at Foo University and then gets a job at a physics lab. They clearly don't know the material that they purportedly got good grades studying. Now say, for the sake of the argument, that this happens a few more times. As a hiring manager at the lab I'm going to be less likely to seriously consider candidates from Foo University (because all of the 4.0 graduates I've hired from there don't know anything). Others will live need to work harder to overcome this bias because of the action of the cheaters. It's very myopic (and a very difficult position to seriously hold unless you're rationalizing past behavior) to assume that cheating doesn't hurt anyone.
madeofpalk 8y ago
No this is a problem in the real world as well. If you are asked to do something but instead you pay someone else to do it, that is bad and you will get in trouble for doing it http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693
- eecsninja 8y ago
  From what I can see, the real problem was that he leaked confidential information to the outside world. Unless we can prove some harm to the consumer or the shareholder, I don't see why anyone outside of the company should care. I still see this as a contractual matter. If his employment contract strictly forbade him from doing this (and it might very well do so), then that's grounds for termination. Just like how copying homework could be grounds for suspension from school. But still a different effect on society than stealing. Another thing to consider: he's making the company management look bad. The smart thing to do would be to promote him for his smart thinking.
  - RIMR 8y ago
    He could have taken on outsourcing as a side-project, outsourced a major portion of his job successfully, demonstrated it to higher ups transparently, and landed a better role as an outsourcing specialist. Instead, he secretly outsourced his entire job and pretended to actually do the work himself so he could get paid to do nothing. The company fired him because he didn't operate in a way that was good for the company, only in a way that benefited him personally. People like him don't belong in management, they belong in jobs that don't require any trust, because they aren't trustworthy people.
    - eecsninja 8y ago
      You're right, actually. He hasn't proved trustworthy, but that's because he leaked confidential company materials. I don't get why this is being brought up as a matter of cheating rather than leaking, which is the big elephant in the room. Still shows a lack of ethics though.
local_yokel 8y ago
How is cheating only an issue in academia? It shows a lack of ethics and a lack of knowledge on the part of the student, and these are things that are quite important to being able to do a good job in the real world. You say "the current system is stupid", "academia is an artificial world", and "past projects and word of mouth" are what matters. Past projects and word of mouth are both systems that are ripe for manipulation by having the right social / marketing skills. Coincidentally, you can also appropriate other people's work and pass it off as your own, perhaps without getting caught. I think I'm beginning to understand why you value these highly.
- eecsninja 8y ago
  I agree about the lack of ethics, but that's something to be screened by future employers or school admissions. I don't disagree with schools having penalties for cheating. But on the moral severity scale, it's really an infraction rather than a felony. Would you call jaywalkers bad people? If you want to see why I have such a disdain for academia, here's my story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16726402 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16726402
  - your-nanny 8y ago
    I wouldn't hire you. Attitudes matter. Trust matters. No way would I hire you, given the views you express.
    - eecsninja 8y ago
      Nice name. I probably wouldn't want to work for you anyway.
  - figgis 8y ago
    You cheating to acquire a degree that says you have learned x information devalues that degree for everyone else that has it. That is nothing like crossing the street where you aren't supposed too.
    - 8y ago
com2kid 8y ago
> 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have. An academic degree is bestowed upon a graduate as a sort of symbol of authenticity, backed by the college/university's reputation, that the graduate has a certain level of mastery in a given set of topics. This mastery includes both a broad base, the ability to make well reasoned arguments, perform basic research, write papers, an understanding of world history, and other undergraduate degree pre-reqs. Cheating is a way for a student to acquire such certification without having done the work, and without having learned the skills that work imparts. > Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers. The cheating services being offered here are about writing essay papers, which are the most basic case of being able to produce an end product after having applied research and critical thinking to a problem space. Being able to communicate, and think, in a clear and coherent manner is one of the very foundations of a classic liberal education. It is also one of the most important skills for almost any professional job. Lying about possessing that ability is a form of deceit, and by common consensus, morally objectionable.
- eecsninja 8y ago
  > People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have. Not if they don't apply to jobs. > Being able to communicate, and think, in a clear and coherent manner is one of the very foundations of a classic liberal education. It is also one of the most important skills for almost any professional job. You can't assess that by talking to someone during an interview? > Lying about possessing that ability is a form of deceit, and by common consensus, morally objectionable. Agreed. That's a matter for when the person is applying to jobs. If he just gets the degree and becomes a trust fund kid for the rest of his life, who is being harmed?
  - com2kid 8y ago
    > Not if they don't apply to jobs This does not apply to the majority of students going to college. Why should a tiny fraction of students be able to drag down the reputation of a college because they do not want to do the work that they signed up to do, paid tuition to be taught how to do, and signed a contract saying that they would honestly complete to the best of their abilities? > You can't assess that by talking to someone during an interview? It is not possible to assess someone's ability to do a long form research report doing a 1 hour in person interview. I have actually seen some companies that do have candidate screening processes that involve independent research work, but that is aside the point[1]. The real point here is that there is a centralized system that is designed to teach, and validate, academic credentials. They are called colleges! > Agreed. That's a matter for when the person is applying to jobs. It is a matter for colleges to worry about because they are in the business of bestowing credentials backed up by the colleges reputation for doing a good job educating their students. If too many students have a degree from a college but they do not actually know anything, then degrees in general from that college become devalued and it cheats the students who put in all the work legitimately! > If he just gets the degree and becomes a trust fund kid for the rest of his life, who is being harmed? Reputable colleges and universities are not day cares for trust fund kids. There are plenty of less reputable colleges that serve that purpose. [1] Such longer interview processes put more burden, which can be measured economically, on both the applicant and the hiring company. The applicant has already paid a fee to go through a skill assessment process, their college tuition. It is possible to model cheaters as an economic drain on both employers and job applicants. Cheating is not free, it has a real cost to it as companies have to implement additional testing and applicants have to spend their time (which always has a monetary trade off) going through screening that is redundant to the credentials they already have.
eecsninja 8y ago
Regarding that employee who outsourced his work: It's not that he didn't do anything wrong. It's that "cheating" is an artificial construct that should be done away with in our way of thinking, and instead we should learn to apply other ethical standards to these things. For example, he's still guilty of breach of security and leaking of confidential information. You might be wondering, what's the big difference? In the end, we still have this action being judged as unethical. The point I'd like you to take away is that you should critically analyze things, especially those taught to you at a early age and for a long time. Hopefully we can see how artificial the system is, and find ways to build a better system. I am not anywhere close to having kids, but I do intend to absorb as much real-world experience as I can over the next few years, so that I can be a better teacher to them than the school system can be.
clairity 8y ago
do you really not understand that railing against the system is not the same thing as advocating cheating, as you seem to be doing? and really? cheating is only an issue in artificial constructs like academia? so if i design a building and crib the stress analysis from another building, it's ok because that's not an artifical situation? it seems academia really did fail you, as your argument just falls apart prima facie. the learned person would reflect on the wealth of the feedback that you're getting here rather than assuming that you've unsheathed some gloden nugget of truth that the rest of us silly fools can't glean. aversion to cheating is embedded in the social systems of all sorts of living creatures. might you want to read up on that and update your arguments, or is that too academic and artificial (as compared to typing into an emphemeral textbox)?
- eecsninja 8y ago
  My point is that cheating is at worst a violation of rules/contracts. I'm saying there's a different way of thinking to understand why somethings are wrong -- not just that they are wrong, but the underlying reasons as well. Every example that has been provided could be counted as wrong by some other existing real world standard. In the case of copying the stress analysis, that is called FRAUD in the real world. I sound like I'm being pedantic here, but I hope some people out there can understand. As far as social systems go, the object of aversion is deception and the associated harm. That's bad. I think we mentally conflate that with academic cheating (plagiarism), when it is something different.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    You keep failing to explain the difference between academic fraud and commercial fraud.
    - eecsninja 8y ago
      Commercial fraud: > The theory of contract espoused here demonstrates that fraud is properly viewed as a type of theft. Suppose Karen buys a bucket of apples from Ethan for $20. Ethan represents the things in the bucket as being apples, in fact, as apples of a certain nature, that is, as being fit for their normal purpose of being eaten. Karen conditions the transfer of title to her $20 on Ethan's not knowingly engaging in 'fraudulent' activities, like pawning off rotten apples. If the apples are indeed rotten and Ethan knows this, then he knows that he does not receive ownership of or permission to use the $20, because the condition 'no fraud' is not satisfied. He is knowingly in possession of Karen's $20 without her consent, and is, therefore, a thief. source: https://mises.org/wire/problem-fraud-fraud-threat-and-contract-breach-types-aggression https://mises.org/wire/problem-fraud-fraud-threat-and-contra... There is no equivalent of harm done to property or person with plagiarism in an academic setting. > Finally, it is curious that the first thing that occurs to people on first hearing the anti-IP case is plagiarism: “You mean it would be okay for someone to take an author’s work, put his own name on it, and sell it?” > Two issues are conflated here. One can plagiarize without violating a copyright, and one can violate a copyright without plagiarizing. Under copyright law you may use brief verbatim excerpts of another’s written work without permission as long as you use quotation marks and attribute the text to the author. It’s called “fair use.” (Question for copyright fans: Isn’t even fair use a violation of an author’s rights?) If you were to use an excerpt that otherwise would qualify under the fair-use principle but without attribution, you would be guilty of plagiarism but not copyright violation. The same would be true if you quote Shakespeare without attribution. (Shakespeare wrote without benefit of copyright.) > On the other hand, if you publish Atlas Shrugged with Ayn Rand’s name on it, you would be guilty of copyright violation but not plagiarism. > For the sake of clear thinking, let’s keep these issues separate. > Well, is plagiarism okay? No, it’s not! Obviously it is dishonest and dishonorable to represent someone else’s work as one’s own. But note, according to LegalZoom, “plagiarism is not a criminal or civil offense.” Nor should it be. It’s a breach of good conduct, and there is a plentitude of nonviolent, non-State ways to deal with it, especially in the Internet age. Source: https://mises.org/wire/slave-labor-and-intellectual-property-misplaced-analogy https://mises.org/wire/slave-labor-and-intellectual-property... Look, I get it's a bad in a practical sense if someone cheats or plagiarizes, especially to the cheater. It could even be a breach of contract between the student and the school. But it's not a crime against another person. It's a "victimless crime" essentially. If someone falsifies licensing or safety requirements, like with an airplane or a building, that's a legal matter. Call that "professional fraud" -- it's illegal. But there is no law against cheating in school.
shabble 8y ago
> Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. What about other artificial systems with defined rules, like sports? Is doping or other cheating permissible? If so, at all levels, or only professional levels? > * Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers.* In large part, the current forms of evaluation (closed book, silent, proctored exams) are a result of people cheating in honour-based systems. As cheating continues to be a problem, pressure is increased on institutions and staff to prevent it, which ultimately leads to a worse learning environment for everyone. Edit: I should point out this isn't a theoretical concern. I personally resent the people who have attempted to 'beat the system' with simple dishonesty and caused me to have to endure uncomfortable and tedious attempts to minimise cheating during my education. In a similar vein, I feel it was a lot better for just about everyone back when you could take more than a thimbleful of liquid onto an aeroplane. > Employers should be using other methods to screen prospective employees -- looking at past projects [...] So having cheated my way through schooling, I should probably drop a few more bucks into getting some jobs-board contractors to knock out a couple of 'passion projects' to throw onto github?
- eecsninja 8y ago
  > What about other artificial systems with defined rules, like sports? Is doping or other cheating permissible? If so, at all levels, or only professional levels? Actually you raise a good point. The sports system is like that too, it's just an artificial system. I don't watch sports so I don't care what goes on inside that system. > Edit: I should point out this isn't a theoretical concern. I personally resent the people who have attempted to 'beat the system' with simple dishonesty and caused me to have to endure uncomfortable and tedious attempts to minimise cheating during my education. I resent the fact that I had to spend so much time in world renowned educational centers learning so much theory that I never use in the real world. I resent the fact that we put the college-as-job-credential system on a pedestal instead of coming up with something more efficient and doesn't let professors hang the fucking sword of Damocles over your head. > So having cheated my way through schooling, I should probably drop a few more bucks into getting some jobs-board contractors to knock out a couple of 'passion projects' to throw onto github? Nice straw man bro.
crazcarl 8y ago
I disagree with #1. An example of non-academic cheating which I think is an issue is the VW emissions scandal. They were essentially supplying the 'answers' to the 'test' and then performing otherwise. This was adversely affecting the environment (which harms us all) by letting the cars drive around producing more emissions than determined allowable.
balls187 8y ago
> We only think it is a moral issue because it's been drilled into us since we were kids, and that we think it is not fair to those who don't cheat and devalues the value of their degree. Is it your belief that if we fail to punish academic cheating, people will learn to not cheat in other aspects of life?
- eecsninja 8y ago
  It is my belief that we should have checks and balances against that in other aspects of life where they matter. Where people's money or lives are on the line. Academia is not one of those situations.
  - balls187 8y ago
    Okay, thanks for the clarification. I disagree with your opinion that Academia doesn't matter. Ignoring Allen Iverson; not taking practice seriously will have consequences during an actual game. At the very least, Academia is practice for adulthood.
hnaccy 8y ago
>We only think it is a moral issue because it's been drilled into us since we were kids Dishonesty has long been considered a moral issue, e.g., Kant.
analog31 8y ago
In my view, cheating extends beyond academia when you claim to have an education that you didn't receive. It does devalue the degree, and it does impose costs on those who don't cheat, by making it harder for them to establish their own credentials. I don't know a clear distinction between "accomplish and explain" and "write answers" for academic study. Employers are using other methods, such as personality tests, coding interviews, work-for-free exercises, requiring "experience" for entry level jobs, and so forth. Employers could abolish that system overnight by simply eliminating the degree requirement. They could reduce their labor costs, because a person with no college debt might be willing to start out at a lower salary and be more loyal to their initial employer.
- eecsninja 8y ago
  > I don't know a clear distinction between "accomplish and explain" and "write answers" for academic study. In my undergraduate education, the most valuable class I had was a set of embedded systems classes. No tests, no homework, just have to build a project incrementally over the course of the quarter, and then provide schematics and documention at the end. > Employers are using other methods, such as personality tests, coding interviews, work-for-free exercises, requiring "experience" for entry level jobs, and so forth. > Employers could abolish that system overnight by simply eliminating the degree requirement. They could reduce their labor costs, because a person with no college debt might be willing to start out at a lower salary and be more loyal to their initial employer. Exactly! Thank you for pointing this out, especially in a world of skyrocketing tuition costs.
your-nanny 8y ago
>Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers That doesn't even make sense. Besides, what's to stop them from cheating on that too?
lifeformed 8y ago
Cheating is a form of dishonesty and selfishness, and breaks the social contract we rely on for a well functioning society. Some people can get away with it, and honest people bear the burden of the cost of damage. If dishonesty becomes an acceptable strategy for navigating society, it becomes the only effective strategy.

eecsninja 8y ago

The haters are out in full force today. Why don't you post point-by-point refutals here instead of hiding behind your downvotes? Way to demonstrate that you're incapable of thinking outside the box that I mentioned in point #2.

trendia 8y ago

I disagree. Homework and exams have two purposes: 1. Help the student learn (by applying theory in homework and encouraging internalization for exams), and 2. Verifying that students have learned the material Cheating destroys both of those. A student can copy a solution to a general relativity problem, but that doesn't mean they understand it, and likewise they can obtain the exam before they take it and memorize the solutions, but then the exam only measures whether they've memorized the solution. That is, cheating completely eliminates the purpose of obtaining an education.

eecsninja 8y ago
And why do we care in a real-world sense whether this student has cheated in general relativity? If that person goes to a physics lab, he would be found out eventually. In a real-world sense, cheating hurts nobody except the person doing it, if even that.
- trendia 8y ago
  Sure, they might be found out when they fail their oral quals, but it would be much easier for everyone if there were a much faster way to find them out, such as a low grade from a school that strictly enforces anti-cheating policies.
- shabble 8y ago
  Would you want to be that surgeon's first patient?
- alonmower 8y ago
  That's not true at all. One example (there are more): Say a student cheats at Foo University and then gets a job at a physics lab. They clearly don't know the material that they purportedly got good grades studying. Now say, for the sake of the argument, that this happens a few more times. As a hiring manager at the lab I'm going to be less likely to seriously consider candidates from Foo University (because all of the 4.0 graduates I've hired from there don't know anything). Others will live need to work harder to overcome this bias because of the action of the cheaters. It's very myopic (and a very difficult position to seriously hold unless you're rationalizing past behavior) to assume that cheating doesn't hurt anyone.

madeofpalk 8y ago

No this is a problem in the real world as well. If you are asked to do something but instead you pay someone else to do it, that is bad and you will get in trouble for doing it http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693

eecsninja 8y ago
From what I can see, the real problem was that he leaked confidential information to the outside world. Unless we can prove some harm to the consumer or the shareholder, I don't see why anyone outside of the company should care. I still see this as a contractual matter. If his employment contract strictly forbade him from doing this (and it might very well do so), then that's grounds for termination. Just like how copying homework could be grounds for suspension from school. But still a different effect on society than stealing. Another thing to consider: he's making the company management look bad. The smart thing to do would be to promote him for his smart thinking.
- RIMR 8y ago
  He could have taken on outsourcing as a side-project, outsourced a major portion of his job successfully, demonstrated it to higher ups transparently, and landed a better role as an outsourcing specialist. Instead, he secretly outsourced his entire job and pretended to actually do the work himself so he could get paid to do nothing. The company fired him because he didn't operate in a way that was good for the company, only in a way that benefited him personally. People like him don't belong in management, they belong in jobs that don't require any trust, because they aren't trustworthy people.
  - eecsninja 8y ago
    You're right, actually. He hasn't proved trustworthy, but that's because he leaked confidential company materials. I don't get why this is being brought up as a matter of cheating rather than leaking, which is the big elephant in the room. Still shows a lack of ethics though.

local_yokel 8y ago

How is cheating only an issue in academia? It shows a lack of ethics and a lack of knowledge on the part of the student, and these are things that are quite important to being able to do a good job in the real world. You say "the current system is stupid", "academia is an artificial world", and "past projects and word of mouth" are what matters. Past projects and word of mouth are both systems that are ripe for manipulation by having the right social / marketing skills. Coincidentally, you can also appropriate other people's work and pass it off as your own, perhaps without getting caught. I think I'm beginning to understand why you value these highly.

eecsninja 8y ago
I agree about the lack of ethics, but that's something to be screened by future employers or school admissions. I don't disagree with schools having penalties for cheating. But on the moral severity scale, it's really an infraction rather than a felony. Would you call jaywalkers bad people? If you want to see why I have such a disdain for academia, here's my story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16726402 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16726402
- your-nanny 8y ago
  I wouldn't hire you. Attitudes matter. Trust matters. No way would I hire you, given the views you express.
  - eecsninja 8y ago
    Nice name. I probably wouldn't want to work for you anyway.
- figgis 8y ago
  You cheating to acquire a degree that says you have learned x information devalues that degree for everyone else that has it. That is nothing like crossing the street where you aren't supposed too.
  - 8y ago

com2kid 8y ago

> 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have. An academic degree is bestowed upon a graduate as a sort of symbol of authenticity, backed by the college/university's reputation, that the graduate has a certain level of mastery in a given set of topics. This mastery includes both a broad base, the ability to make well reasoned arguments, perform basic research, write papers, an understanding of world history, and other undergraduate degree pre-reqs. Cheating is a way for a student to acquire such certification without having done the work, and without having learned the skills that work imparts. > Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers. The cheating services being offered here are about writing essay papers, which are the most basic case of being able to produce an end product after having applied research and critical thinking to a problem space. Being able to communicate, and think, in a clear and coherent manner is one of the very foundations of a classic liberal education. It is also one of the most important skills for almost any professional job. Lying about possessing that ability is a form of deceit, and by common consensus, morally objectionable.

eecsninja 8y ago
> People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have. Not if they don't apply to jobs. > Being able to communicate, and think, in a clear and coherent manner is one of the very foundations of a classic liberal education. It is also one of the most important skills for almost any professional job. You can't assess that by talking to someone during an interview? > Lying about possessing that ability is a form of deceit, and by common consensus, morally objectionable. Agreed. That's a matter for when the person is applying to jobs. If he just gets the degree and becomes a trust fund kid for the rest of his life, who is being harmed?
- com2kid 8y ago
  > Not if they don't apply to jobs This does not apply to the majority of students going to college. Why should a tiny fraction of students be able to drag down the reputation of a college because they do not want to do the work that they signed up to do, paid tuition to be taught how to do, and signed a contract saying that they would honestly complete to the best of their abilities? > You can't assess that by talking to someone during an interview? It is not possible to assess someone's ability to do a long form research report doing a 1 hour in person interview. I have actually seen some companies that do have candidate screening processes that involve independent research work, but that is aside the point[1]. The real point here is that there is a centralized system that is designed to teach, and validate, academic credentials. They are called colleges! > Agreed. That's a matter for when the person is applying to jobs. It is a matter for colleges to worry about because they are in the business of bestowing credentials backed up by the colleges reputation for doing a good job educating their students. If too many students have a degree from a college but they do not actually know anything, then degrees in general from that college become devalued and it cheats the students who put in all the work legitimately! > If he just gets the degree and becomes a trust fund kid for the rest of his life, who is being harmed? Reputable colleges and universities are not day cares for trust fund kids. There are plenty of less reputable colleges that serve that purpose. [1] Such longer interview processes put more burden, which can be measured economically, on both the applicant and the hiring company. The applicant has already paid a fee to go through a skill assessment process, their college tuition. It is possible to model cheaters as an economic drain on both employers and job applicants. Cheating is not free, it has a real cost to it as companies have to implement additional testing and applicants have to spend their time (which always has a monetary trade off) going through screening that is redundant to the credentials they already have.

eecsninja 8y ago

Regarding that employee who outsourced his work: It's not that he didn't do anything wrong. It's that "cheating" is an artificial construct that should be done away with in our way of thinking, and instead we should learn to apply other ethical standards to these things. For example, he's still guilty of breach of security and leaking of confidential information. You might be wondering, what's the big difference? In the end, we still have this action being judged as unethical. The point I'd like you to take away is that you should critically analyze things, especially those taught to you at a early age and for a long time. Hopefully we can see how artificial the system is, and find ways to build a better system. I am not anywhere close to having kids, but I do intend to absorb as much real-world experience as I can over the next few years, so that I can be a better teacher to them than the school system can be.

clairity 8y ago

do you really not understand that railing against the system is not the same thing as advocating cheating, as you seem to be doing? and really? cheating is only an issue in artificial constructs like academia? so if i design a building and crib the stress analysis from another building, it's ok because that's not an artifical situation? it seems academia really did fail you, as your argument just falls apart prima facie. the learned person would reflect on the wealth of the feedback that you're getting here rather than assuming that you've unsheathed some gloden nugget of truth that the rest of us silly fools can't glean. aversion to cheating is embedded in the social systems of all sorts of living creatures. might you want to read up on that and update your arguments, or is that too academic and artificial (as compared to typing into an emphemeral textbox)?

eecsninja 8y ago
My point is that cheating is at worst a violation of rules/contracts. I'm saying there's a different way of thinking to understand why somethings are wrong -- not just that they are wrong, but the underlying reasons as well. Every example that has been provided could be counted as wrong by some other existing real world standard. In the case of copying the stress analysis, that is called FRAUD in the real world. I sound like I'm being pedantic here, but I hope some people out there can understand. As far as social systems go, the object of aversion is deception and the associated harm. That's bad. I think we mentally conflate that with academic cheating (plagiarism), when it is something different.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  You keep failing to explain the difference between academic fraud and commercial fraud.
  - eecsninja 8y ago
    Commercial fraud: > The theory of contract espoused here demonstrates that fraud is properly viewed as a type of theft. Suppose Karen buys a bucket of apples from Ethan for $20. Ethan represents the things in the bucket as being apples, in fact, as apples of a certain nature, that is, as being fit for their normal purpose of being eaten. Karen conditions the transfer of title to her $20 on Ethan's not knowingly engaging in 'fraudulent' activities, like pawning off rotten apples. If the apples are indeed rotten and Ethan knows this, then he knows that he does not receive ownership of or permission to use the $20, because the condition 'no fraud' is not satisfied. He is knowingly in possession of Karen's $20 without her consent, and is, therefore, a thief. source: https://mises.org/wire/problem-fraud-fraud-threat-and-contract-breach-types-aggression https://mises.org/wire/problem-fraud-fraud-threat-and-contra... There is no equivalent of harm done to property or person with plagiarism in an academic setting. > Finally, it is curious that the first thing that occurs to people on first hearing the anti-IP case is plagiarism: “You mean it would be okay for someone to take an author’s work, put his own name on it, and sell it?” > Two issues are conflated here. One can plagiarize without violating a copyright, and one can violate a copyright without plagiarizing. Under copyright law you may use brief verbatim excerpts of another’s written work without permission as long as you use quotation marks and attribute the text to the author. It’s called “fair use.” (Question for copyright fans: Isn’t even fair use a violation of an author’s rights?) If you were to use an excerpt that otherwise would qualify under the fair-use principle but without attribution, you would be guilty of plagiarism but not copyright violation. The same would be true if you quote Shakespeare without attribution. (Shakespeare wrote without benefit of copyright.) > On the other hand, if you publish Atlas Shrugged with Ayn Rand’s name on it, you would be guilty of copyright violation but not plagiarism. > For the sake of clear thinking, let’s keep these issues separate. > Well, is plagiarism okay? No, it’s not! Obviously it is dishonest and dishonorable to represent someone else’s work as one’s own. But note, according to LegalZoom, “plagiarism is not a criminal or civil offense.” Nor should it be. It’s a breach of good conduct, and there is a plentitude of nonviolent, non-State ways to deal with it, especially in the Internet age. Source: https://mises.org/wire/slave-labor-and-intellectual-property-misplaced-analogy https://mises.org/wire/slave-labor-and-intellectual-property... Look, I get it's a bad in a practical sense if someone cheats or plagiarizes, especially to the cheater. It could even be a breach of contract between the student and the school. But it's not a crime against another person. It's a "victimless crime" essentially. If someone falsifies licensing or safety requirements, like with an airplane or a building, that's a legal matter. Call that "professional fraud" -- it's illegal. But there is no law against cheating in school.

shabble 8y ago

> Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. What about other artificial systems with defined rules, like sports? Is doping or other cheating permissible? If so, at all levels, or only professional levels? > * Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers.* In large part, the current forms of evaluation (closed book, silent, proctored exams) are a result of people cheating in honour-based systems. As cheating continues to be a problem, pressure is increased on institutions and staff to prevent it, which ultimately leads to a worse learning environment for everyone. Edit: I should point out this isn't a theoretical concern. I personally resent the people who have attempted to 'beat the system' with simple dishonesty and caused me to have to endure uncomfortable and tedious attempts to minimise cheating during my education. In a similar vein, I feel it was a lot better for just about everyone back when you could take more than a thimbleful of liquid onto an aeroplane. > Employers should be using other methods to screen prospective employees -- looking at past projects [...] So having cheated my way through schooling, I should probably drop a few more bucks into getting some jobs-board contractors to knock out a couple of 'passion projects' to throw onto github?

eecsninja 8y ago
> What about other artificial systems with defined rules, like sports? Is doping or other cheating permissible? If so, at all levels, or only professional levels? Actually you raise a good point. The sports system is like that too, it's just an artificial system. I don't watch sports so I don't care what goes on inside that system. > Edit: I should point out this isn't a theoretical concern. I personally resent the people who have attempted to 'beat the system' with simple dishonesty and caused me to have to endure uncomfortable and tedious attempts to minimise cheating during my education. I resent the fact that I had to spend so much time in world renowned educational centers learning so much theory that I never use in the real world. I resent the fact that we put the college-as-job-credential system on a pedestal instead of coming up with something more efficient and doesn't let professors hang the fucking sword of Damocles over your head. > So having cheated my way through schooling, I should probably drop a few more bucks into getting some jobs-board contractors to knock out a couple of 'passion projects' to throw onto github? Nice straw man bro.

crazcarl 8y ago

I disagree with #1. An example of non-academic cheating which I think is an issue is the VW emissions scandal. They were essentially supplying the 'answers' to the 'test' and then performing otherwise. This was adversely affecting the environment (which harms us all) by letting the cars drive around producing more emissions than determined allowable.

balls187 8y ago

> We only think it is a moral issue because it's been drilled into us since we were kids, and that we think it is not fair to those who don't cheat and devalues the value of their degree. Is it your belief that if we fail to punish academic cheating, people will learn to not cheat in other aspects of life?

eecsninja 8y ago
It is my belief that we should have checks and balances against that in other aspects of life where they matter. Where people's money or lives are on the line. Academia is not one of those situations.
- balls187 8y ago
  Okay, thanks for the clarification. I disagree with your opinion that Academia doesn't matter. Ignoring Allen Iverson; not taking practice seriously will have consequences during an actual game. At the very least, Academia is practice for adulthood.

hnaccy 8y ago

>We only think it is a moral issue because it's been drilled into us since we were kids Dishonesty has long been considered a moral issue, e.g., Kant.

analog31 8y ago

In my view, cheating extends beyond academia when you claim to have an education that you didn't receive. It does devalue the degree, and it does impose costs on those who don't cheat, by making it harder for them to establish their own credentials. I don't know a clear distinction between "accomplish and explain" and "write answers" for academic study. Employers are using other methods, such as personality tests, coding interviews, work-for-free exercises, requiring "experience" for entry level jobs, and so forth. Employers could abolish that system overnight by simply eliminating the degree requirement. They could reduce their labor costs, because a person with no college debt might be willing to start out at a lower salary and be more loyal to their initial employer.

eecsninja 8y ago
> I don't know a clear distinction between "accomplish and explain" and "write answers" for academic study. In my undergraduate education, the most valuable class I had was a set of embedded systems classes. No tests, no homework, just have to build a project incrementally over the course of the quarter, and then provide schematics and documention at the end. > Employers are using other methods, such as personality tests, coding interviews, work-for-free exercises, requiring "experience" for entry level jobs, and so forth. > Employers could abolish that system overnight by simply eliminating the degree requirement. They could reduce their labor costs, because a person with no college debt might be willing to start out at a lower salary and be more loyal to their initial employer. Exactly! Thank you for pointing this out, especially in a world of skyrocketing tuition costs.

your-nanny 8y ago

>Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers That doesn't even make sense. Besides, what's to stop them from cheating on that too?

lifeformed 8y ago

Cheating is a form of dishonesty and selfishness, and breaks the social contract we rely on for a well functioning society. Some people can get away with it, and honest people bear the burden of the cost of damage. If dishonesty becomes an acceptable strategy for navigating society, it becomes the only effective strategy.