4 ms·

I think young boys are being treated terribly. I am so disturbed by this and am to the point where I feel compelled to intercede in the emotional life of a tro

I think young boys are being treated terribly. I am so disturbed by this and am to the point where I feel compelled to intercede in the emotional life of a troubled young relative of mine. In my opinion, the problem is that we're no longer celebrating masculinity, but rather it seems we trash it at every opportunity nowadays. Not sure how much that weighs on the loneliness problem, but I suspect having young men not acting like men isn't helping with our collective well-being and sociability.

s73v3r_ 8y ago
I think we're trashing the toxic masculinity. The idea that men should always be stoic; should not have any feelings, and are supposed to be the epitome of manliness and power.
- the_gastropod 8y ago
  I think both of these can be true. I think (hope?) most people would agree that the toxically masculine way we often raise boys ("no crying! man up! don't be a wuss!") is abusive and awful. In the critical response to this kind of toxic masculinity, I think some of the rhetoric has been a bit inelegant, and has made some men feel attacked. I think it's especially easy for boys/young men to struggle to grok the necessary nuance to these kinds of discussions.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Displays of emotion from men are quite unwelcome in many contexts. Perhaps that is less true than in the past, but if this is changing it is changing very slowly.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- EdSharkey 8y ago
  I think the "toxic masculinity" label isn't being heard by young males quite the way you intend. Drumming the word 'toxic' in front of 'masculinity' and a lot of kids are going to believe, "it's poisonous to be male". That's because kids lack the insights and knowledge to think beyond the literal meanings of those words. I wonder if you think there won't be consequences to your words? I wonder what you think the consequences might be? I hope you'll be pleased to learn that aggressive tendencies can encouraged, shepherded, and focused towards the positive. So, perhaps "unfocused aggression" is the more politically correct negative label you were searching for? Your word choice is too full of hurt. (I'm sorry if some men have hurt you.) It's not a spite thing, but we just cannot let your feelings win the day, and you have to lose this fight for all our sakes. We want our men to be aggressive, competent, and noble creatures after all. We'll silence your "toxic masculinity" messages at every opportunity with our powerful charm and energy. We'll show our young men how to be the boss and love our women too. ;)
  - throwaway413 8y ago
    > our women Please tell me you forgot the /s on this post.
    - kadenshep 8y ago
      He is not. He's hitting like every disgusting talking point there is.
  - kadenshep 8y ago
    > Drumming the word 'toxic' in front of 'masculinity' and a lot of kids are going to believe, "it's poisonous to be male". No they aren't, and they don't. I can garauntee that most kids (who you don't seem have to much experience with) have more than enough intelligence to understand how adjectives and nouns work.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    No. I'm sorry, but your entire message is a shining example of "toxic masculinity". This idea that the man cannot show emotion, cannot be vulnerable, and must be in charge at all times. And that "and love our women too" bit is really creepy. Especially the "our" part, indicating that they are your property. That is a textbook sign of toxic masculinity, and a big red flag in the advent of the "incel" movement. Far, far too many of those young men see women as property that they are owed.
    - EdSharkey 8y ago
      Do I think I own my wife like chattel? No. Is she 'mine'? Yes, she is; I won her heart, period. I don't share her with other men, and that's not me being facetious. If you don't understand how that works and cannot appreciate this healthy male point of view, then that's your tough lesson to learn. My wife is a third wave feminist, she wouldn't be dominated by me if I tried. And that's not right to think that way, and I don't act like a dominant a-hole that way, for the record. But she clearly looks to me for leadership of the family, and I gratefully, joyfully provide that leadership. So I am legitimately dominant in many aspects of our relationship, just not by force.
- dkoubsky 8y ago
  I don't think you can relate toxic masculinity to stoicism or suppression of feelings. While there are toxic attitudes that are merely acting out some misunderstood idea of masculinity (Ex: Telling a boy with legitimate issues that he needs to get over it), much of these ideas have merit. Men suppress their feelings so that they can be a strong pillar for their families in times of trouble. Say a leader in your family, like a father, dies. What good does it do a man to completely break down emotionally and be of no value. In an ideal scenario, a man will step up and become truly useful during this time of trouble. Somebody has to make funeral plans and deal with the logistics of the whole crisis. This is a selfless action that gives others a time to mourn and you will get your time to mourn after everyone else has collected themselves. Additionally, while deep and dangerous feelings, such as depression, should not be suppressed, many of the things you feel don't need to be shared. Maybe you don't feel like working out, or you feel like going off on an annoying coworker. These feelings do no good for you or the people around you, or are afraid to do the things you know you should be doing, but you still feel them. It would be better to suppress them, face your fears, and do something useful. There are times to share your emotions and there are times to suppress them, and it only takes a little bit of wisdom to tell the difference.
  - EdSharkey 8y ago
    > Men suppress their feelings so that they can be a strong pillar for their families in times of trouble. These points of yours about feelings are very deep, and speak to my male identity. It might be tempting for some to brush these points off as antiquated patriarchal notions of human relationships. That would be foolish to do. What I read in your discussion is the value and power of self-control and the positive effects that that consequently has on our relationships. I hear you saying that controlling the natural emotions that well up within us is not an unhealthy repression! We need to celebrate the quite typical, quite healthy, self-regulated male. That person can lead, and we all crave leadership in the family, office, church, gov't, etc. Self-regulation is not solely a male attribute, but it certainly should be promoted and carefully cultivated in males given their biological free agency. Emotions are healthy to repress when, as you say, there would be a detriment to self or group in engaging in those emotions. It is competence and being truthful to self and group that lets one know when to emote or not.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
kadenshep 8y ago
These are pretty loaded statements.
- EdSharkey 8y ago
  Loaded with truth, yes.
  - kadenshep 8y ago
    Far, far from it. I am pretty concerned for anyone you could possibly be mentoring or in your words, "interceding." God help him, because that sounds nutty.
    - EdSharkey 8y ago
      Go on.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

I think we're trashing the toxic masculinity. The idea that men should always be stoic; should not have any feelings, and are supposed to be the epitome of manliness and power.

the_gastropod 8y ago
I think both of these can be true. I think (hope?) most people would agree that the toxically masculine way we often raise boys ("no crying! man up! don't be a wuss!") is abusive and awful. In the critical response to this kind of toxic masculinity, I think some of the rhetoric has been a bit inelegant, and has made some men feel attacked. I think it's especially easy for boys/young men to struggle to grok the necessary nuance to these kinds of discussions.
jessaustin 8y ago
Displays of emotion from men are quite unwelcome in many contexts. Perhaps that is less true than in the past, but if this is changing it is changing very slowly.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
EdSharkey 8y ago
I think the "toxic masculinity" label isn't being heard by young males quite the way you intend. Drumming the word 'toxic' in front of 'masculinity' and a lot of kids are going to believe, "it's poisonous to be male". That's because kids lack the insights and knowledge to think beyond the literal meanings of those words. I wonder if you think there won't be consequences to your words? I wonder what you think the consequences might be? I hope you'll be pleased to learn that aggressive tendencies can encouraged, shepherded, and focused towards the positive. So, perhaps "unfocused aggression" is the more politically correct negative label you were searching for? Your word choice is too full of hurt. (I'm sorry if some men have hurt you.) It's not a spite thing, but we just cannot let your feelings win the day, and you have to lose this fight for all our sakes. We want our men to be aggressive, competent, and noble creatures after all. We'll silence your "toxic masculinity" messages at every opportunity with our powerful charm and energy. We'll show our young men how to be the boss and love our women too. ;)
- throwaway413 8y ago
  > our women Please tell me you forgot the /s on this post.
  - kadenshep 8y ago
    He is not. He's hitting like every disgusting talking point there is.
- kadenshep 8y ago
  > Drumming the word 'toxic' in front of 'masculinity' and a lot of kids are going to believe, "it's poisonous to be male". No they aren't, and they don't. I can garauntee that most kids (who you don't seem have to much experience with) have more than enough intelligence to understand how adjectives and nouns work.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  No. I'm sorry, but your entire message is a shining example of "toxic masculinity". This idea that the man cannot show emotion, cannot be vulnerable, and must be in charge at all times. And that "and love our women too" bit is really creepy. Especially the "our" part, indicating that they are your property. That is a textbook sign of toxic masculinity, and a big red flag in the advent of the "incel" movement. Far, far too many of those young men see women as property that they are owed.
  - EdSharkey 8y ago
    Do I think I own my wife like chattel? No. Is she 'mine'? Yes, she is; I won her heart, period. I don't share her with other men, and that's not me being facetious. If you don't understand how that works and cannot appreciate this healthy male point of view, then that's your tough lesson to learn. My wife is a third wave feminist, she wouldn't be dominated by me if I tried. And that's not right to think that way, and I don't act like a dominant a-hole that way, for the record. But she clearly looks to me for leadership of the family, and I gratefully, joyfully provide that leadership. So I am legitimately dominant in many aspects of our relationship, just not by force.
dkoubsky 8y ago
I don't think you can relate toxic masculinity to stoicism or suppression of feelings. While there are toxic attitudes that are merely acting out some misunderstood idea of masculinity (Ex: Telling a boy with legitimate issues that he needs to get over it), much of these ideas have merit. Men suppress their feelings so that they can be a strong pillar for their families in times of trouble. Say a leader in your family, like a father, dies. What good does it do a man to completely break down emotionally and be of no value. In an ideal scenario, a man will step up and become truly useful during this time of trouble. Somebody has to make funeral plans and deal with the logistics of the whole crisis. This is a selfless action that gives others a time to mourn and you will get your time to mourn after everyone else has collected themselves. Additionally, while deep and dangerous feelings, such as depression, should not be suppressed, many of the things you feel don't need to be shared. Maybe you don't feel like working out, or you feel like going off on an annoying coworker. These feelings do no good for you or the people around you, or are afraid to do the things you know you should be doing, but you still feel them. It would be better to suppress them, face your fears, and do something useful. There are times to share your emotions and there are times to suppress them, and it only takes a little bit of wisdom to tell the difference.
- EdSharkey 8y ago
  > Men suppress their feelings so that they can be a strong pillar for their families in times of trouble. These points of yours about feelings are very deep, and speak to my male identity. It might be tempting for some to brush these points off as antiquated patriarchal notions of human relationships. That would be foolish to do. What I read in your discussion is the value and power of self-control and the positive effects that that consequently has on our relationships. I hear you saying that controlling the natural emotions that well up within us is not an unhealthy repression! We need to celebrate the quite typical, quite healthy, self-regulated male. That person can lead, and we all crave leadership in the family, office, church, gov't, etc. Self-regulation is not solely a male attribute, but it certainly should be promoted and carefully cultivated in males given their biological free agency. Emotions are healthy to repress when, as you say, there would be a detriment to self or group in engaging in those emotions. It is competence and being truthful to self and group that lets one know when to emote or not.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

kadenshep 8y ago

These are pretty loaded statements.

EdSharkey 8y ago
Loaded with truth, yes.
- kadenshep 8y ago
  Far, far from it. I am pretty concerned for anyone you could possibly be mentoring or in your words, "interceding." God help him, because that sounds nutty.
  - EdSharkey 8y ago
    Go on.