4 ms·

I have a feeling that people who make misterbowlfingers argument would say that your analogy is also valid.

s17n 8y ago
The point is that since similar statements could be constructed about anything ("murder isn't wrong, it's the job of police to prevent me from killing people"), it's a dumb argument, regardless of how you feel about cheating or stealing.
- sithadmin 8y ago
  No, your approach to reasoning is bad. You're trying to apply a construct from formal logic and apply it to situations that defy description in formal logic. You can't reduce aesthetic and emotional responses into syllogism.
  - s17n 8y ago
    Often, the nuances of the real world defy simple syllogistic reasoning. This isn't one of those times.
    - Retric 8y ago
      Prove it. "Cheating" seems to have huge downsides, on the other hand it reduces friction inside of a rigid system. That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have.
      - tylerhou 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons > "Suppose buyers cannot distinguish between a high-quality car (a "peach") and a "lemon". Then they are only willing to pay a fixed price for a car that averages the value of a "peach" and "lemon" together (pavg). But sellers know whether they hold a peach or a lemon. Given the fixed price at which buyers will buy, sellers will sell only when they hold "lemons" (since plemon < pavg) and they will leave the market when they hold "peaches" (since ppeach > pavg). Eventually, as enough sellers of "peaches" leave the market, the average willingness-to-pay of buyers will decrease (since the average quality of cars on the market decreased), leading to even more sellers of high-quality cars to leave the market through a positive feedback loop."
        Retric 8y ago
        As to your specific argument reducing the implied value of a degree without impacting it's actual value is a net gain to society. Credentials independent of skill forces people to jump through extra hoops. This ends up as a huge drain on society. Anyway you just specified an implied though not supported downside, while ignoring my point that cheating has some minor upsides. Demonstrating that cheating is a dead loss for society is not enough you need to demonstrate it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities allowing for such simple syllogistic reasoning to apply
      - nitrogen 8y ago
        > That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have. A major NYC blackout resulted in a bunch of looting. That looting is supposed to have resulted in a bunch of new musicians getting their hands on good equipment. Those scofflaw musicians invented new musical genres that revolutionized the artform. Sounds a lot like reducing the friction inside a rigid system. Basically, while we might prefer to have people raise integrity to the highest priority, life is complicated and it's sometimes hard to say a wrong thing is 100% wrong.
        Retric 8y ago
        TV's are not musical instruments and where part of my argument specifically because they are not used to create stuff.
sithadmin 8y ago
It is a valid analogy, because it confronts reality: there are a huge number of persons with economic incentives to commit immoral or illegal acts, and the state doesn't have the capability to intervene in a majority of cases. I mean, hell, look at SOX. Look at the various anti-money laundering requirements that banks are subject to. The de jure approach here in the world today is to force the corporation to police its own staff and customers.
usrusr 8y ago
"Punched him in the face for looking weak." Unfortunately, that attitude isn't half as uncommon as one should hope.

s17n 8y ago

The point is that since similar statements could be constructed about anything ("murder isn't wrong, it's the job of police to prevent me from killing people"), it's a dumb argument, regardless of how you feel about cheating or stealing.

sithadmin 8y ago
No, your approach to reasoning is bad. You're trying to apply a construct from formal logic and apply it to situations that defy description in formal logic. You can't reduce aesthetic and emotional responses into syllogism.
- s17n 8y ago
  Often, the nuances of the real world defy simple syllogistic reasoning. This isn't one of those times.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Prove it. "Cheating" seems to have huge downsides, on the other hand it reduces friction inside of a rigid system. That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have.
    - tylerhou 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons > "Suppose buyers cannot distinguish between a high-quality car (a "peach") and a "lemon". Then they are only willing to pay a fixed price for a car that averages the value of a "peach" and "lemon" together (pavg). But sellers know whether they hold a peach or a lemon. Given the fixed price at which buyers will buy, sellers will sell only when they hold "lemons" (since plemon < pavg) and they will leave the market when they hold "peaches" (since ppeach > pavg). Eventually, as enough sellers of "peaches" leave the market, the average willingness-to-pay of buyers will decrease (since the average quality of cars on the market decreased), leading to even more sellers of high-quality cars to leave the market through a positive feedback loop."
      - Retric 8y ago
        As to your specific argument reducing the implied value of a degree without impacting it's actual value is a net gain to society. Credentials independent of skill forces people to jump through extra hoops. This ends up as a huge drain on society. Anyway you just specified an implied though not supported downside, while ignoring my point that cheating has some minor upsides. Demonstrating that cheating is a dead loss for society is not enough you need to demonstrate it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities allowing for such simple syllogistic reasoning to apply
    - nitrogen 8y ago
      > That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have. A major NYC blackout resulted in a bunch of looting. That looting is supposed to have resulted in a bunch of new musicians getting their hands on good equipment. Those scofflaw musicians invented new musical genres that revolutionized the artform. Sounds a lot like reducing the friction inside a rigid system. Basically, while we might prefer to have people raise integrity to the highest priority, life is complicated and it's sometimes hard to say a wrong thing is 100% wrong.
      - Retric 8y ago
        TV's are not musical instruments and where part of my argument specifically because they are not used to create stuff.

sithadmin 8y ago

It is a valid analogy, because it confronts reality: there are a huge number of persons with economic incentives to commit immoral or illegal acts, and the state doesn't have the capability to intervene in a majority of cases. I mean, hell, look at SOX. Look at the various anti-money laundering requirements that banks are subject to. The de jure approach here in the world today is to force the corporation to police its own staff and customers.

usrusr 8y ago

"Punched him in the face for looking weak." Unfortunately, that attitude isn't half as uncommon as one should hope.