4 ms·

"embrace/extend/extinguish" is Microsoft's invention [1]. What are examples of Google's use of EEE? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_ext

"embrace/extend/extinguish" is Microsoft's invention [1]. What are examples of Google's use of EEE? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
It was Microsoft's strategy roughly twenty years ago. It's Google's strategy today.
- andybak 9y ago
  Can you provide an example? Something more specific than merely competing with existing businesses. The intent is key in the original definition of EEE.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    Google Reader would be the often mentioned first example: Google entered the RSS reader market, became the best, added a bunch of features and really became "the" de facto place to read feeds. ...Then closed up shop and killed much of the ecosystem outright, directing people towards proprietary places to get their news like social networks or Google News. Hangouts did very much the same with XMPP, a move which a Googler once suggested to me was viewed internally as a betrayal of the company's values. I think we may be approaching EEE territory with email: Gmail's already centralized a large portion of the email industry, to the point that Google has about two-thirds of all emails on one side or the other, and now they're moving into introducing a proprietary email format (AMP 4 Email), which isn't being developed in a standards-focused way. I'm sure the same argument could be made for their push into RCS over texting, browsers (now pushing Chrome-only websites and features in a lot of places), Android (embracing third party OEMs before moving into locking down much of newer Android functionality and launching a first party iPhone competitor), etc. If there was a movie quote that best exemplified Google's business strategy, it would be "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Google Reader does not fit the pattern of EEE; if anything, it shows their failure to pursue it. EEE with Reader would be to add proprietary extension to feeds and transform it into a closed system. What they actually did was lose a bunch of people for alternative readers, for Twitter and for Facebook. AMP for email does seem a good example. RCS is not developed by or supported exclusively by Google. They weren't even the first; Vodafone had it on their phones for years. Google is late to the party. -- My opinion is not that Google is ethically above doing EEE; it's that they're often too disorganized and erratic to actually pull it off even if they wanted to.
      - JetSpiegel 9y ago
        > EEE with Reader would be to add proprietary extension to feeds and transform it into a closed system Like Google+?
        Buge 9y ago
        Reader didn't transform into Google+. Google+ was a Facebook clone.
        icebraining 9y ago
        No. The intent might have been to move Reader users to G+, but they did not perform an EEE to accomplish it.
    - nl 9y ago
      Google Reader is pretty much the opposite of EEE. They built and publicised the market and then walked away. Just having the best app isn't EEE.
  - chatmasta 9y ago
    I was thinking primarily of Google AMP when I wrote that. Google's strategy is not necessarily the same as Microsoft's was; often it's a bit more subtle, but the common theme is that Google pushes standards that are primarily beneficial to itself, but often paints them disingenuously as "helping the web" or some equally meaningless BS. Some examples which might not qualify specifically as EEE, but certainly qualify as Google pushing for biased standards: - Google AMP (not clearly EEE, but definitely anti-open web) - Google Chrome (not quite EEE, but barrier to entry in browser market is now extremely high) Some more clearly EEE examples: - GChat (clear EEE strategy on XMPP) - Google flights (EEE the travel industry) - Google shopping (EEE affiliate offers) - .... Note that these examples are not solely "competing with an existing business" as you described, because the initial announcement of them was usually welcoming and open, e.g. opening with federated xmpp compatibility, promoting it, and then extinguishing it later. If developers back then had known google would shut down xmpp, maybe they would have put effort into building a better federated xmpp ecosystem instead of wasting time interoperating with google's system. That kind of bait and switch is the hallmark of an EEE strategy.
    - coolspot 9y ago
      Barrier to enter browser market is now just fork Chrome source and apply your logo, thanks to Google (see Opera, Brave and hundred others as an example). Other examples are simply competitive products, nothing EEE about having a generic product in your portfolio.
      - s2g 9y ago
        That's not competition in the browser space that's just giving Google more power. Google is an incredibly evil company and are hellbent on destroying the open web.
    - cpeterso 9y ago
      Gmails embraces and extends regular email with new features that only work when sending Gmail to other Gmail users.
  - samschooler 9y ago
    GChat/Hangouts is a prime example. The embraced XMPP and Jabber much to the delight of the open protocols communities. They then expanded on the protocol adding stickers and drawings and other stuff. Then closed off their XMPP gateway once they were huge (stickers no longer work with the protocol they said), essentially killing the future (at least mainstream) of XMPP, and pushing more people to proprietary messaging platforms.
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    I can: Chrome. Sadly the Chrome team together with web devs everywhere are creating a web where "works best in IE6^h^h^hChrome" is making a very unwelcome comeback. This should be so unnecessary in 2018. I don't think the devs are necessarily doing this on purpose. I do however wish they'd be somewhat more considerate about the web ecosystem. I'd also wish they hadn't used their dominant position in ads to push Chrome as "a better browser" for years to everyone including people who already used modern browsers.
  - zapita 9y ago
    Gmail is embracing and extending email. AMP is embracing and extending website hosting. Google News is embracing and extending free web news outlets. Chrome is embracing and extending the open-source web browser community. Android is embracing and extending the open-source mobile OS development community. I understand what you mean by "the intent is important", and certainly no senior Google executive is sending emails with directives as explicit as Bill Gates did.. But they don't have to, because the EEE playbook is now well-understood by the rank-and-file. When Gmail PMs gradually introduce more and more proprietary features into the product, gradually widening the gap in functionality with IMAP clients, they know what they are doing. It's not an all-out assault on open email above all else. But the end result is the same. Bottom line, EEE in 2018 looks different than EEE in 2000, but it's there, and it's just as dangerous. We should not give Google a pass just because they're more subtle in their implementation.
    - rmwaite 9y ago
      Careful readers will notice that you did not use the word extinguish in your reply.
      - zapita 9y ago
        There isn't a monolithic explicit strategy with the word "extinguish" in it. Instead there's a pervasive set of tactics which result in embracing, extending and, when successful, extinguishing open standards and communities. Gmail is very far away from extinguishing open email, because that's such a huge target, but it certainly managed to make a dent. How many users have forever left the open ecosystem of smtp/imap/pop tools and service providers because of Gmail's growth? If Gmail hypothetically reached the market share necessary to mortally wound that open ecosystem, do we have any doubt that it would eventually do it? And remember, email is the largest open ecosystem in my list. Where is the fully open alternative to iOS? Answer: it doesn't exist because Android captured all the momentum from the emerging community, and channeled it into a platform that is now closed for all practical purposes. In this case, extinction has already happened.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago

It was Microsoft's strategy roughly twenty years ago. It's Google's strategy today.

andybak 9y ago
Can you provide an example? Something more specific than merely competing with existing businesses. The intent is key in the original definition of EEE.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  Google Reader would be the often mentioned first example: Google entered the RSS reader market, became the best, added a bunch of features and really became "the" de facto place to read feeds. ...Then closed up shop and killed much of the ecosystem outright, directing people towards proprietary places to get their news like social networks or Google News. Hangouts did very much the same with XMPP, a move which a Googler once suggested to me was viewed internally as a betrayal of the company's values. I think we may be approaching EEE territory with email: Gmail's already centralized a large portion of the email industry, to the point that Google has about two-thirds of all emails on one side or the other, and now they're moving into introducing a proprietary email format (AMP 4 Email), which isn't being developed in a standards-focused way. I'm sure the same argument could be made for their push into RCS over texting, browsers (now pushing Chrome-only websites and features in a lot of places), Android (embracing third party OEMs before moving into locking down much of newer Android functionality and launching a first party iPhone competitor), etc. If there was a movie quote that best exemplified Google's business strategy, it would be "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Google Reader does not fit the pattern of EEE; if anything, it shows their failure to pursue it. EEE with Reader would be to add proprietary extension to feeds and transform it into a closed system. What they actually did was lose a bunch of people for alternative readers, for Twitter and for Facebook. AMP for email does seem a good example. RCS is not developed by or supported exclusively by Google. They weren't even the first; Vodafone had it on their phones for years. Google is late to the party. -- My opinion is not that Google is ethically above doing EEE; it's that they're often too disorganized and erratic to actually pull it off even if they wanted to.
    - JetSpiegel 9y ago
      > EEE with Reader would be to add proprietary extension to feeds and transform it into a closed system Like Google+?
      - Buge 9y ago
        Reader didn't transform into Google+. Google+ was a Facebook clone.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        No. The intent might have been to move Reader users to G+, but they did not perform an EEE to accomplish it.
  - nl 9y ago
    Google Reader is pretty much the opposite of EEE. They built and publicised the market and then walked away. Just having the best app isn't EEE.
- chatmasta 9y ago
  I was thinking primarily of Google AMP when I wrote that. Google's strategy is not necessarily the same as Microsoft's was; often it's a bit more subtle, but the common theme is that Google pushes standards that are primarily beneficial to itself, but often paints them disingenuously as "helping the web" or some equally meaningless BS. Some examples which might not qualify specifically as EEE, but certainly qualify as Google pushing for biased standards: - Google AMP (not clearly EEE, but definitely anti-open web) - Google Chrome (not quite EEE, but barrier to entry in browser market is now extremely high) Some more clearly EEE examples: - GChat (clear EEE strategy on XMPP) - Google flights (EEE the travel industry) - Google shopping (EEE affiliate offers) - .... Note that these examples are not solely "competing with an existing business" as you described, because the initial announcement of them was usually welcoming and open, e.g. opening with federated xmpp compatibility, promoting it, and then extinguishing it later. If developers back then had known google would shut down xmpp, maybe they would have put effort into building a better federated xmpp ecosystem instead of wasting time interoperating with google's system. That kind of bait and switch is the hallmark of an EEE strategy.
  - coolspot 9y ago
    Barrier to enter browser market is now just fork Chrome source and apply your logo, thanks to Google (see Opera, Brave and hundred others as an example). Other examples are simply competitive products, nothing EEE about having a generic product in your portfolio.
    - s2g 9y ago
      That's not competition in the browser space that's just giving Google more power. Google is an incredibly evil company and are hellbent on destroying the open web.
  - cpeterso 9y ago
    Gmails embraces and extends regular email with new features that only work when sending Gmail to other Gmail users.
- samschooler 9y ago
  GChat/Hangouts is a prime example. The embraced XMPP and Jabber much to the delight of the open protocols communities. They then expanded on the protocol adding stickers and drawings and other stuff. Then closed off their XMPP gateway once they were huge (stickers no longer work with the protocol they said), essentially killing the future (at least mainstream) of XMPP, and pushing more people to proprietary messaging platforms.
- reitanqild 9y ago
  I can: Chrome. Sadly the Chrome team together with web devs everywhere are creating a web where "works best in IE6^h^h^hChrome" is making a very unwelcome comeback. This should be so unnecessary in 2018. I don't think the devs are necessarily doing this on purpose. I do however wish they'd be somewhat more considerate about the web ecosystem. I'd also wish they hadn't used their dominant position in ads to push Chrome as "a better browser" for years to everyone including people who already used modern browsers.
- zapita 9y ago
  Gmail is embracing and extending email. AMP is embracing and extending website hosting. Google News is embracing and extending free web news outlets. Chrome is embracing and extending the open-source web browser community. Android is embracing and extending the open-source mobile OS development community. I understand what you mean by "the intent is important", and certainly no senior Google executive is sending emails with directives as explicit as Bill Gates did.. But they don't have to, because the EEE playbook is now well-understood by the rank-and-file. When Gmail PMs gradually introduce more and more proprietary features into the product, gradually widening the gap in functionality with IMAP clients, they know what they are doing. It's not an all-out assault on open email above all else. But the end result is the same. Bottom line, EEE in 2018 looks different than EEE in 2000, but it's there, and it's just as dangerous. We should not give Google a pass just because they're more subtle in their implementation.
  - rmwaite 9y ago
    Careful readers will notice that you did not use the word extinguish in your reply.
    - zapita 9y ago
      There isn't a monolithic explicit strategy with the word "extinguish" in it. Instead there's a pervasive set of tactics which result in embracing, extending and, when successful, extinguishing open standards and communities. Gmail is very far away from extinguishing open email, because that's such a huge target, but it certainly managed to make a dent. How many users have forever left the open ecosystem of smtp/imap/pop tools and service providers because of Gmail's growth? If Gmail hypothetically reached the market share necessary to mortally wound that open ecosystem, do we have any doubt that it would eventually do it? And remember, email is the largest open ecosystem in my list. Where is the fully open alternative to iOS? Answer: it doesn't exist because Android captured all the momentum from the emerging community, and channeled it into a platform that is now closed for all practical purposes. In this case, extinction has already happened.