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Also the drivers aren't supplying a service "outside the business's normal variety." They're supplying the core Uber service. EDIT: They might be able to rede

Also the drivers aren't supplying a service "outside the business's normal variety." They're supplying the core Uber service. EDIT: They might be able to redefine themselves as purely a software company for the drivers to remain contractors.

icebraining 9y ago
It says "... or workplace". Uber drivers don't work in Uber's buildings.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  This is not quite an exclusive or. The service is not outside of business standard variety. Other cab companies have client driven matchmaking systems too now... They also employ office workers. The workplace for a cab driver is his car. Therefore, what Uber does would make them a cab company that abuses contractors instead of employing employees. However, the key point here is the test A. If Uber is specifically telling the drivers to pick up specific fares or otherwise forcing them to pick up fares beyond the number and/or time, they are actually employees not contractors. Fudging with scoring system to fire those who do not follow such orders indirectly could be construed as such as well.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Considering the actual text posted by jaggederest in another comment, it does seem to be an exclusive or: "the services provided were either outside the usual course of business or performed outside of all the places of business of the enterprise" Regarding other cab companies, most cab drivers have been traditionally classified as contractors. The idea that Uber introduced this practice is propaganda.
    - Normal_gaussian 9y ago
      That isn't an exclusive or; the English language lets that be interpreted as either an xor or or, and the reasoning of the context shows it to be an or. To iterate; the statement sets out two conditions, either of which are sufficient independent of the other, and claims that each of a number of services met one of those conditions.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        Thanks, I'm not a native speaker, and I thought either/or was a xor.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        woqe 9y ago
        I think there is valid confusion to be had in interpreting this statement. Usually, when a statement of "choose either x or y" is made, then the only valid options are exclusively x or exclusively y (None and Both are not valid). Though, when the statement of "if either x or y then do action" is made, then the action is done with any of three valid options: x, y, or x and y (only None is not valid). To change the second statement to mean the first, you could say "if only x or only y then do action." The "only" cancel Both as being an option.
        kbutler 9y ago
        Native speaker here. Either-or does imply exclusive-or, but it is often used less formally, so you will sometimes see it made explicit as "either x or y, but not both."
  - tlrobinson 9y ago
    > Fudging with scoring system to fire those who do not follow such orders indirectly could be construed as such as well. Surely companies must be allowed some method to ensure the quality of work they desire.
    - Hermitian909 9y ago
      No one's saying they can't be allowed such a method. But it may be the case that for persistent business relationships doing so may mean an employee/employer relationship rather than the relationship between a business and an independent contractor.
    - SolarNet 9y ago
      A scoring system of the resulting work is fine. A scoring system that effectively encodes how they did the work is problematic because it means they company is now dictating how work be done, which is an employee relationship. E.g. It's the difference between: a scoring system that uses a coding style standard and unit tests on the resulting code to build a score; and a scoring system that uses hours logged into the computer manipulating the IDE and lines of code written per hour to build a score (the contractor could use that as a way to score himself and for billing, but not the company).
    - rdiddly 9y ago
      I believe the distinction lies in describing the final work product vs. describing means and methods. If you have an outsourcing contract with an independent contractor, you're allowed to specify (usually via specifications that are appended to the contract) performance objectives and quality of the work, and what the final work-product looks like. If you stray too far or too often over into specifying the means and methods by which they're supposed to achieve those results, then you're treating the contractors like employees, which actually come to think of it, is already sort of a no-no under most current contracting arrangements I'm aware of. Although there are always gray areas... for example what if you're turning over source code at the end of a project? Then your writing of the code is both a method and a final work-product. Some attorney needs to earn their keep and make sure everything is all laid out nice and kosher in the contract so things don't get murky.
apendleton 9y ago
Well, I suppose Uber would argue that their service isn't the providing if rides, but rather, the matchmaking of independent ride providers to prospective customers, and facilitation of payment. (Not that we should believe them.)
- fauigerzigerk 9y ago
  That would be difficult to reconcile with a self-driving car project (unless they didn't own or operate those cars themselves).
  - exelius 9y ago
    I think a distributed ownership model is actually the most likely model for self-driving cars given the capital investment required.
- briandear 9y ago
  So are property owners employees of AirBnB?
  - pseudalopex 9y ago
    Property owners set their own rates and don't get detailed directions from Airbnb for each stay.
    - mattmanser 9y ago
      They're just providing a free GPS, it's not a core part of the business. Even the rates thing isn't particularly compelling, the drivers can decide which sort of jobs to take, normal, high, etc. it's not like they have set shift patterns or anything.
      - s73v3r_ 9y ago
        I find the rates thing quite compelling. Uber/Lyft are dictating the prices. Drivers have no say in them. And, while you can technically decline rides, the Uber/Lyft algorithms will punish you for doing so.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

icebraining 9y ago

It says "... or workplace". Uber drivers don't work in Uber's buildings.

AstralStorm 9y ago
This is not quite an exclusive or. The service is not outside of business standard variety. Other cab companies have client driven matchmaking systems too now... They also employ office workers. The workplace for a cab driver is his car. Therefore, what Uber does would make them a cab company that abuses contractors instead of employing employees. However, the key point here is the test A. If Uber is specifically telling the drivers to pick up specific fares or otherwise forcing them to pick up fares beyond the number and/or time, they are actually employees not contractors. Fudging with scoring system to fire those who do not follow such orders indirectly could be construed as such as well.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Considering the actual text posted by jaggederest in another comment, it does seem to be an exclusive or: "the services provided were either outside the usual course of business or performed outside of all the places of business of the enterprise" Regarding other cab companies, most cab drivers have been traditionally classified as contractors. The idea that Uber introduced this practice is propaganda.
  - Normal_gaussian 9y ago
    That isn't an exclusive or; the English language lets that be interpreted as either an xor or or, and the reasoning of the context shows it to be an or. To iterate; the statement sets out two conditions, either of which are sufficient independent of the other, and claims that each of a number of services met one of those conditions.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Thanks, I'm not a native speaker, and I thought either/or was a xor.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - woqe 9y ago
        I think there is valid confusion to be had in interpreting this statement. Usually, when a statement of "choose either x or y" is made, then the only valid options are exclusively x or exclusively y (None and Both are not valid). Though, when the statement of "if either x or y then do action" is made, then the action is done with any of three valid options: x, y, or x and y (only None is not valid). To change the second statement to mean the first, you could say "if only x or only y then do action." The "only" cancel Both as being an option.
      - kbutler 9y ago
        Native speaker here. Either-or does imply exclusive-or, but it is often used less formally, so you will sometimes see it made explicit as "either x or y, but not both."
- tlrobinson 9y ago
  > Fudging with scoring system to fire those who do not follow such orders indirectly could be construed as such as well. Surely companies must be allowed some method to ensure the quality of work they desire.
  - Hermitian909 9y ago
    No one's saying they can't be allowed such a method. But it may be the case that for persistent business relationships doing so may mean an employee/employer relationship rather than the relationship between a business and an independent contractor.
  - SolarNet 9y ago
    A scoring system of the resulting work is fine. A scoring system that effectively encodes how they did the work is problematic because it means they company is now dictating how work be done, which is an employee relationship. E.g. It's the difference between: a scoring system that uses a coding style standard and unit tests on the resulting code to build a score; and a scoring system that uses hours logged into the computer manipulating the IDE and lines of code written per hour to build a score (the contractor could use that as a way to score himself and for billing, but not the company).
  - rdiddly 9y ago
    I believe the distinction lies in describing the final work product vs. describing means and methods. If you have an outsourcing contract with an independent contractor, you're allowed to specify (usually via specifications that are appended to the contract) performance objectives and quality of the work, and what the final work-product looks like. If you stray too far or too often over into specifying the means and methods by which they're supposed to achieve those results, then you're treating the contractors like employees, which actually come to think of it, is already sort of a no-no under most current contracting arrangements I'm aware of. Although there are always gray areas... for example what if you're turning over source code at the end of a project? Then your writing of the code is both a method and a final work-product. Some attorney needs to earn their keep and make sure everything is all laid out nice and kosher in the contract so things don't get murky.

apendleton 9y ago

Well, I suppose Uber would argue that their service isn't the providing if rides, but rather, the matchmaking of independent ride providers to prospective customers, and facilitation of payment. (Not that we should believe them.)

fauigerzigerk 9y ago
That would be difficult to reconcile with a self-driving car project (unless they didn't own or operate those cars themselves).
- exelius 9y ago
  I think a distributed ownership model is actually the most likely model for self-driving cars given the capital investment required.
briandear 9y ago
So are property owners employees of AirBnB?
- pseudalopex 9y ago
  Property owners set their own rates and don't get detailed directions from Airbnb for each stay.
  - mattmanser 9y ago
    They're just providing a free GPS, it's not a core part of the business. Even the rates thing isn't particularly compelling, the drivers can decide which sort of jobs to take, normal, high, etc. it's not like they have set shift patterns or anything.
    - s73v3r_ 9y ago
      I find the rates thing quite compelling. Uber/Lyft are dictating the prices. Drivers have no say in them. And, while you can technically decline rides, the Uber/Lyft algorithms will punish you for doing so.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]