4 ms·

> If you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel pay-wise, you’re making the wager that someone good enough to write solid code doesn’t know enough math to know

> If you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel pay-wise, you’re making the wager that someone good enough to write solid code doesn’t know enough math to know This, you nailed it and honestly what else matters. 100% of "offshore labor" and "india labor" and whatever is about exploiting people for personal gain. It's short-sighted selfish greedy Americans mostly, and they honestly believe that brown people living in other countries exist to be their slave labor. These same people are the ones who are constantly trying to abuse the "intern" program. If you hire someone in India for $20/hr to do a job you damn well know is worth $100/hr then you're a ....ing ....ole. Every time I see job postings looking to exploit third world labor markets, I hope those underpaid developers burn the employer's entire operation to the ground. It's not enough to bear witness to evil. We should be taking action to stop it.

sokoloff 8y ago
I believe there's a wide middle ground where qualified developers in India can do excellent work, for a well-above Indian average salary, for American companies, and where the American company can get excellent talent for cheaper than state-side. Everyone is made better off when the American company decides to make this type of hire versus hiring no one. The companies trying to hire/exploit developers for 8-10 Lakh are going to have a way worse experience than those trying to hire developers for 35 or 50 Lakh (and they deserve the experience, IMO).
- originalsimba 8y ago
  > for a well-above Indian average salary In other words, you think it's okay to exploit people? If you're writing software for a global corporation on a global marketplace (The internet), why would it be acceptable to be paid based on regional politics, which is what local economies are reflective of.? Especially considering the politics of third world nations is manipulated and controlled by the governments of first world nations for profitable gains. No, the only acceptable answer is to pay all developers equally regardless of region, based only on their capability, and perhaps their investment of time and effort into their own improvement. The Pre-Internet Planet Earth and all the little tricks that our ancestors injected to make it easier to take advantage of less fortunate people needs to end. Their guilt isn't yours until you decide to ignore your morality so you can make a few easier bucks. You cannot be a willing and informed participant in this systemic evil and pretend that it's anything but.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    Just as we pay relevant to local markets in Prague, Barcelona, Zurich, Boston, and Seattle, we also reference local markets in India. (We don't only reference local markets when it suits us.) Unless you take the view that all profitable employers exploit their employees (a view that I understand but do not share nor agree with), I don't believe that we're unfairly nor inappropriately exploiting our talent in any of our locations. We seek to make a profit above the cost of our inputs (including risk premium) and I'm not ashamed of what we pay our employees in any of our markets anywhere in the world. If you choose to pay your employees using a different system, I support your right to do so.
    - originalsimba 8y ago
      So... yes? I guess I'm challenging you to justify this policy without naming greed as your justification. You are exploiting people for what amounts to slave labor. You're saying that because someone has the unfortunate luck of being born in a third world country that they deserve a smaller salary than you. Admitting that you are not ashamed of yourself for exploiting poor people for cheap labor I mean.. what else is there to say I guess.
      - sokoloff 8y ago
        No, I don't think it's OK to exploit people; I think I said as much. I don't believe that it's exploitive to make an offer of salary that an employee is overjoyed to accept. If you believe that's exploitive, you should run your company differently or work for a company that doesn't do that.
        originalsimba 8y ago
        I do run my own company differently. > I don't believe that it's exploitive But it is. You aren't paying them based on their capabilities or merit, you're paying them based on what region of the world they were born into, which is completely out of their control. The message your "offer" sends is this, you aren't worth a real developer's salary, because you were born in India. So work for peanuts for me, your privileged first-world master, until you've earned enough to move out of the nation you were born in, and then maybe you can earn a salary equal to your peers. That is exactly what you're doing, and that is exploitative. I know it's exploitative because it is exactly what American plantation owners did in the slave-owning south 250 years ago. "Work for me for some length of time and you can earn your freedom". It's the same scam. "But these developers are being paid" uh huh, they get $5-$20/hr for what I get $100/hr for. It is dishonest to call that fair. If you don't believe in equal pay for equal merit then stand behind your opinion, but don't pretend that you're doing these poverty stricken people some kind of favor by paying them fast-food salaries to develop your million dollar applications. If someone spends their life becoming an expert developer they deserve to make expert-developer salaries regardless of what region of the world they call home. The economic "tool" of outsourcing has always been about exploiting poverty and literally everyone actually knows that.

sokoloff 8y ago

I believe there's a wide middle ground where qualified developers in India can do excellent work, for a well-above Indian average salary, for American companies, and where the American company can get excellent talent for cheaper than state-side. Everyone is made better off when the American company decides to make this type of hire versus hiring no one. The companies trying to hire/exploit developers for 8-10 Lakh are going to have a way worse experience than those trying to hire developers for 35 or 50 Lakh (and they deserve the experience, IMO).

originalsimba 8y ago
> for a well-above Indian average salary In other words, you think it's okay to exploit people? If you're writing software for a global corporation on a global marketplace (The internet), why would it be acceptable to be paid based on regional politics, which is what local economies are reflective of.? Especially considering the politics of third world nations is manipulated and controlled by the governments of first world nations for profitable gains. No, the only acceptable answer is to pay all developers equally regardless of region, based only on their capability, and perhaps their investment of time and effort into their own improvement. The Pre-Internet Planet Earth and all the little tricks that our ancestors injected to make it easier to take advantage of less fortunate people needs to end. Their guilt isn't yours until you decide to ignore your morality so you can make a few easier bucks. You cannot be a willing and informed participant in this systemic evil and pretend that it's anything but.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  Just as we pay relevant to local markets in Prague, Barcelona, Zurich, Boston, and Seattle, we also reference local markets in India. (We don't only reference local markets when it suits us.) Unless you take the view that all profitable employers exploit their employees (a view that I understand but do not share nor agree with), I don't believe that we're unfairly nor inappropriately exploiting our talent in any of our locations. We seek to make a profit above the cost of our inputs (including risk premium) and I'm not ashamed of what we pay our employees in any of our markets anywhere in the world. If you choose to pay your employees using a different system, I support your right to do so.
  - originalsimba 8y ago
    So... yes? I guess I'm challenging you to justify this policy without naming greed as your justification. You are exploiting people for what amounts to slave labor. You're saying that because someone has the unfortunate luck of being born in a third world country that they deserve a smaller salary than you. Admitting that you are not ashamed of yourself for exploiting poor people for cheap labor I mean.. what else is there to say I guess.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      No, I don't think it's OK to exploit people; I think I said as much. I don't believe that it's exploitive to make an offer of salary that an employee is overjoyed to accept. If you believe that's exploitive, you should run your company differently or work for a company that doesn't do that.
      - originalsimba 8y ago
        I do run my own company differently. > I don't believe that it's exploitive But it is. You aren't paying them based on their capabilities or merit, you're paying them based on what region of the world they were born into, which is completely out of their control. The message your "offer" sends is this, you aren't worth a real developer's salary, because you were born in India. So work for peanuts for me, your privileged first-world master, until you've earned enough to move out of the nation you were born in, and then maybe you can earn a salary equal to your peers. That is exactly what you're doing, and that is exploitative. I know it's exploitative because it is exactly what American plantation owners did in the slave-owning south 250 years ago. "Work for me for some length of time and you can earn your freedom". It's the same scam. "But these developers are being paid" uh huh, they get $5-$20/hr for what I get $100/hr for. It is dishonest to call that fair. If you don't believe in equal pay for equal merit then stand behind your opinion, but don't pretend that you're doing these poverty stricken people some kind of favor by paying them fast-food salaries to develop your million dollar applications. If someone spends their life becoming an expert developer they deserve to make expert-developer salaries regardless of what region of the world they call home. The economic "tool" of outsourcing has always been about exploiting poverty and literally everyone actually knows that.