7 ms·

Over 95 percent of IT “engineers” in India are incapable of basic programming

39 points by williamxd3 8y ago

mediawatch 8y ago
This article is based on a study dating back to April 2017. https://itwire.com/outsourcing/78004-only-36-of-indian-engineers-can-write-compilable-code-study.html https://itwire.com/outsourcing/78004-only-36-of-indian-engin...
- johnyboyd 8y ago
  Umm ... ok, so in the past 1 year, things have vastly improved ? Haha !
  - mediawatch 8y ago
    It's old news. It starts out saying: "A new report by Aspiring Minds.." The report is not new. It is a year old. Can you get that into your head?
icedchai 8y ago
If someone's "in IT", it does not mean they're a developer, at least around here. It usually means they're a network or system admin.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  Well, there's an in-between sort of status, where you're not a "developer" or a "software engineer" but you're not a "network/system admin" either. Maybe your title is "programmer analyst" or "systems analyst" for instance.
- havetocharge 8y ago
  I don't know where "here" is for you, but any systems person that's been employed in the last 5 years should be able to write syntactically and logically correct code. At least that's my experience and expectation from working in the North Eastern part of North America.
  - icedchai 8y ago
    I'm near Boston. If someone says they're "in IT", there's a good chance they can't program. Sure, maybe they can write a bash script.
- FooHentai 8y ago
  The portion of network and system administrators that can write compliable, functional code is high. Amongst those that hold degrees, it's likely near 100%, as almost all courses include multiple programming modules.
DamnYuppie 8y ago
As someone who as managed large off shore teams in India I am just going to file this one away under "duh".
w0m 8y ago
IT != SWE
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
patrickg_zill 8y ago
A friend of mine left a profitable company because he was tired of dealing with offshore engineers. The company's strategy was to have a few people in the USA and have other work done for cheap in India; where they got what they paid for...
- sokoloff 8y ago
  If you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel pay-wise, you’re making the wager that someone good enough to write solid code doesn’t know enough math to know that they could get a 3-5x raise by going to a company paying a locally competitive wage. We get excellent results overall from our teams in India, but we also pay quite a bit over the bottom of the market there...
  - originalsimba 8y ago
    > If you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel pay-wise, you’re making the wager that someone good enough to write solid code doesn’t know enough math to know This, you nailed it and honestly what else matters. 100% of "offshore labor" and "india labor" and whatever is about exploiting people for personal gain. It's short-sighted selfish greedy Americans mostly, and they honestly believe that brown people living in other countries exist to be their slave labor. These same people are the ones who are constantly trying to abuse the "intern" program. If you hire someone in India for $20/hr to do a job you damn well know is worth $100/hr then you're a ....ing ....ole. Every time I see job postings looking to exploit third world labor markets, I hope those underpaid developers burn the employer's entire operation to the ground. It's not enough to bear witness to evil. We should be taking action to stop it.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      I believe there's a wide middle ground where qualified developers in India can do excellent work, for a well-above Indian average salary, for American companies, and where the American company can get excellent talent for cheaper than state-side. Everyone is made better off when the American company decides to make this type of hire versus hiring no one. The companies trying to hire/exploit developers for 8-10 Lakh are going to have a way worse experience than those trying to hire developers for 35 or 50 Lakh (and they deserve the experience, IMO).
azinman2 8y ago
I have no idea how good this “study” was or representative, but there’s a clear agenda in the “reporting.” I’m sure there’s validity in looking at the Tata’s of the world with skepticism and abuse of visas, but no one with credibility could look across the top talent of Silicon Valley and say it’s not important to get Indians work visas.... or those from any country, really. It’s a strategic advantage to get the world’s best talent in and wanting to stay in the US. Also, when the word “IT” does not exactly sound like top engineering talent.
- 40four 8y ago
  Agreed, this article is rubbish, and anyone who upvoted should be ashamed.
  - 40four 8y ago
    Now all of my comments expressing displeasure with this website are getting downvoted. I suspect whatever network of accounts colluded to upvote this trash briefly into the top 30(before it got flagged), are now downvoting anyone who says something bad negative about them. There is fuckery afoot!
  - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
    Actually I upvoted it hoping for some meaningful discussion regarding the findings from the report. However, the website is rubbish and it seems most comments seem to focus on that instead of the findings.
Clubber 8y ago
The 95% number seems high. I'd be interested in seeing the test, but I'm sure it's proprietary. >Over 36,000 engineering students from IT related branches of over 500 colleges Well they're students. In my experience you build most of your chops "on the street." I would hope they wouldn't include freshmen or sophomores who haven't even really dug into the major curriculum (assuming their colleges work the same way as our accredited ones).
pcr0 8y ago
Is there any information regarding methodology or is this just shilling for their assessment services? The stats show that most programs had syntax errors. I don't think it's fair to ask someone to write strictly correct Java/C#/C++ using pen and paper.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
justboxing 8y ago
Pretty certain the website is a content farm troll that is also indulging in heavy astroturfing... http://newobserveronline.com/about-us/ http://newobserveronline.com/about-us/ > We are staffed by professional writers who all have extensive experience in news and journalism from around the globe. No names, or headshots, or bios, or contact info of any of their "professional writers".
- 40four 8y ago
  Thank you. This website is a farce. It's disgusting this got any up votes.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
    I admit I upvoted it even though I consider the website to be trash, because the findings from the report seem interesting.
    - 40four 8y ago
      I agree it is interesting, but I think as a whole we should not reward sites like that with traffic from our community. I'd bet $20 someone affliated with the site posted this to drive traffic, & it briefly rose into the top 30 before getting flagged. Any normal person would have linked to the main study or a repetubale source.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
        On second thought, you're right, I made a mistake upvoting it.
iAMAGuest 8y ago
same site reports >Jews in US Congress Urge Israel to Accept UN “Deal” to Deport African Invaders to White Countries I don't think this would qualify as a creditable new source for IT information.
bichiliad 8y ago
A few thoughts: 1. The scare quotes around "Engineers" seems inappropriate. 2. "In India" is pretty broad; did they go out and test every self-proclaimed engineer in India? 3. "Candidate is not able to write compilable code" sounds questionable; how were they assessed? Were they allowed to use an IDE? Were they allowed to fix compiler errors and were unable, or did they instantly fail if their code didn't compile on the first try? 4. I think the assumption that people who self-select to apply for Aspiring Minds represent a fair slice of Indian Engineers seems weak at best.
dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
The article was flagged yesterday. Instead of linking to this alt-right website it makes more sense to link to the actual website with the report: http://www.aspiringminds.com/automata-national-programming-report http://www.aspiringminds.com/automata-national-programming-r...
- 40four 8y ago
  This is my main gripe. It's not that the topic isn't interesting, I think it's very likely someone affliliated with the site linked to it. I'm a relative newcomer to HN, & I love the things I discover & learn here, But Because of my displeasure with this flagged article I've lost what little reputaion I scraped together(another sign I think there are bad actors at work here) I think we shouldn't upvote these sites so they are not rewarded them with advertising exposures. I would imagine trending HN stories drive good traffic to the linked sites.

39 points by williamxd3 8y ago

This article is based on a study dating back to April 2017. https://itwire.com/outsourcing/78004-only-36-of-indian-engineers-can-write-compilable-code-study.html https://itwire.com/outsourcing/78004-only-36-of-indian-engin...

johnyboyd 8y ago
Umm ... ok, so in the past 1 year, things have vastly improved ? Haha !
- mediawatch 8y ago
  It's old news. It starts out saying: "A new report by Aspiring Minds.." The report is not new. It is a year old. Can you get that into your head?

icedchai 8y ago

If someone's "in IT", it does not mean they're a developer, at least around here. It usually means they're a network or system admin.

perl4ever 8y ago
Well, there's an in-between sort of status, where you're not a "developer" or a "software engineer" but you're not a "network/system admin" either. Maybe your title is "programmer analyst" or "systems analyst" for instance.
havetocharge 8y ago
I don't know where "here" is for you, but any systems person that's been employed in the last 5 years should be able to write syntactically and logically correct code. At least that's my experience and expectation from working in the North Eastern part of North America.
- icedchai 8y ago
  I'm near Boston. If someone says they're "in IT", there's a good chance they can't program. Sure, maybe they can write a bash script.
FooHentai 8y ago
The portion of network and system administrators that can write compliable, functional code is high. Amongst those that hold degrees, it's likely near 100%, as almost all courses include multiple programming modules.

DamnYuppie 8y ago

As someone who as managed large off shore teams in India I am just going to file this one away under "duh".

w0m 8y ago

IT != SWE

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

patrickg_zill 8y ago

A friend of mine left a profitable company because he was tired of dealing with offshore engineers. The company's strategy was to have a few people in the USA and have other work done for cheap in India; where they got what they paid for...

sokoloff 8y ago
If you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel pay-wise, you’re making the wager that someone good enough to write solid code doesn’t know enough math to know that they could get a 3-5x raise by going to a company paying a locally competitive wage. We get excellent results overall from our teams in India, but we also pay quite a bit over the bottom of the market there...
- originalsimba 8y ago
  > If you try to scrape the bottom of the barrel pay-wise, you’re making the wager that someone good enough to write solid code doesn’t know enough math to know This, you nailed it and honestly what else matters. 100% of "offshore labor" and "india labor" and whatever is about exploiting people for personal gain. It's short-sighted selfish greedy Americans mostly, and they honestly believe that brown people living in other countries exist to be their slave labor. These same people are the ones who are constantly trying to abuse the "intern" program. If you hire someone in India for $20/hr to do a job you damn well know is worth $100/hr then you're a ....ing ....ole. Every time I see job postings looking to exploit third world labor markets, I hope those underpaid developers burn the employer's entire operation to the ground. It's not enough to bear witness to evil. We should be taking action to stop it.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    I believe there's a wide middle ground where qualified developers in India can do excellent work, for a well-above Indian average salary, for American companies, and where the American company can get excellent talent for cheaper than state-side. Everyone is made better off when the American company decides to make this type of hire versus hiring no one. The companies trying to hire/exploit developers for 8-10 Lakh are going to have a way worse experience than those trying to hire developers for 35 or 50 Lakh (and they deserve the experience, IMO).

azinman2 8y ago

I have no idea how good this “study” was or representative, but there’s a clear agenda in the “reporting.” I’m sure there’s validity in looking at the Tata’s of the world with skepticism and abuse of visas, but no one with credibility could look across the top talent of Silicon Valley and say it’s not important to get Indians work visas.... or those from any country, really. It’s a strategic advantage to get the world’s best talent in and wanting to stay in the US. Also, when the word “IT” does not exactly sound like top engineering talent.

40four 8y ago
Agreed, this article is rubbish, and anyone who upvoted should be ashamed.
- 40four 8y ago
  Now all of my comments expressing displeasure with this website are getting downvoted. I suspect whatever network of accounts colluded to upvote this trash briefly into the top 30(before it got flagged), are now downvoting anyone who says something bad negative about them. There is fuckery afoot!
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  Actually I upvoted it hoping for some meaningful discussion regarding the findings from the report. However, the website is rubbish and it seems most comments seem to focus on that instead of the findings.

Clubber 8y ago

The 95% number seems high. I'd be interested in seeing the test, but I'm sure it's proprietary. >Over 36,000 engineering students from IT related branches of over 500 colleges Well they're students. In my experience you build most of your chops "on the street." I would hope they wouldn't include freshmen or sophomores who haven't even really dug into the major curriculum (assuming their colleges work the same way as our accredited ones).

pcr0 8y ago

Is there any information regarding methodology or is this just shilling for their assessment services? The stats show that most programs had syntax errors. I don't think it's fair to ask someone to write strictly correct Java/C#/C++ using pen and paper.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

justboxing 8y ago

Pretty certain the website is a content farm troll that is also indulging in heavy astroturfing... http://newobserveronline.com/about-us/ http://newobserveronline.com/about-us/ > We are staffed by professional writers who all have extensive experience in news and journalism from around the globe. No names, or headshots, or bios, or contact info of any of their "professional writers".

40four 8y ago
Thank you. This website is a farce. It's disgusting this got any up votes.
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  I admit I upvoted it even though I consider the website to be trash, because the findings from the report seem interesting.
  - 40four 8y ago
    I agree it is interesting, but I think as a whole we should not reward sites like that with traffic from our community. I'd bet $20 someone affliated with the site posted this to drive traffic, & it briefly rose into the top 30 before getting flagged. Any normal person would have linked to the main study or a repetubale source.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
      On second thought, you're right, I made a mistake upvoting it.

iAMAGuest 8y ago

same site reports >Jews in US Congress Urge Israel to Accept UN “Deal” to Deport African Invaders to White Countries I don't think this would qualify as a creditable new source for IT information.

bichiliad 8y ago

A few thoughts: 1. The scare quotes around "Engineers" seems inappropriate. 2. "In India" is pretty broad; did they go out and test every self-proclaimed engineer in India? 3. "Candidate is not able to write compilable code" sounds questionable; how were they assessed? Were they allowed to use an IDE? Were they allowed to fix compiler errors and were unable, or did they instantly fail if their code didn't compile on the first try? 4. I think the assumption that people who self-select to apply for Aspiring Minds represent a fair slice of Indian Engineers seems weak at best.

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago

The article was flagged yesterday. Instead of linking to this alt-right website it makes more sense to link to the actual website with the report: http://www.aspiringminds.com/automata-national-programming-report http://www.aspiringminds.com/automata-national-programming-r...

40four 8y ago
This is my main gripe. It's not that the topic isn't interesting, I think it's very likely someone affliliated with the site linked to it. I'm a relative newcomer to HN, & I love the things I discover & learn here, But Because of my displeasure with this flagged article I've lost what little reputaion I scraped together(another sign I think there are bad actors at work here) I think we shouldn't upvote these sites so they are not rewarded them with advertising exposures. I would imagine trending HN stories drive good traffic to the linked sites.