5 ms·

This is a relatively solved problem. Abstractions. 50 years ago the IRS had to build a webserver, the servlet application code, it had to build in fault tolera

This is a relatively solved problem. Abstractions. 50 years ago the IRS had to build a webserver, the servlet application code, it had to build in fault tolerance without SQS or Kafka. If built today, the IRS' entire system would probably run on Rails with JRuby, deployed with Docker and K8s, and be 1000x more maintainable.

justinator 9y ago
Oh yes, 1000x maintainable with 1000x more lines in the codebase. Speak softly into my ear, these little lies you like to tell me.
- samlents 9y ago
  Having not worked on large scale systems like what I imagine they must be working with, is this really true? I would have thought that a modern framework would make things easier. I've certainly had life made easier by modern web frameworks like React and Angular, although the support timeline is more on the order of 2-3 years, rather than 20-30.
  - dx034 9y ago
    Not sure, what if you have an enterprise system that uses a few hundred docker containers and at some point in 10-20 years there's a major vulnerability that can only be fixed by breaking compatibility for one function? Securing that system could be significantly harder than fixing a monolithic system.
- chiph 9y ago
  Make sure you're including all the lines, including those in libraries/frameworks you reference. Because they all count towards your MTBF.
DonaldFisk 9y ago
50 years ago the WWW didn't exist and there was no such thing as a servlet. The system ran on a mainframe not 50 but 60 years ago. The only high level language at the time was FORTRAN, but this system was apparently written in assembly language. Does anyone know the type of computer it ran on? The article it linked to says IBM mainframe but which model?
- cat199 9y ago
  > The only high level language at the time was FORTRAN, but this system was apparently written in assembly language. No direct insight to the actual system used, but FWIW IBM mainframe assembly IMHO seems 'surprisingly' user friendly due to the large amount of standard macros/routines provided, clear/direct integration with JCL, and the minimalist ethos of the OS. Take a look at some youtube videos for some examples, it actually looks like a fairly interesting/productive, if arcane, environment. Writing clean/well architected applications in it doesn't actually look like it would necessarily be a ridiculous notion. Of course, how well any given production system was constructed and what cruft has accumulated in it over 50y is probably another story..
- saratogacx 9y ago
  They use IBM/360[1] mainframes. Bloomberg had a good story [2] some time ago that was re-run last April 17th on some of the history. [1] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tech-timebomb-the-irs-is-still-living-in-the-1960s https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tech-timebomb-the-irs-is-... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-17/the-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-17/the-irs-c...
- beezle 9y ago
  COBOL, ALGOL, PL/1
  - DonaldFisk 9y ago
    Not in 1958. The first COBOL compiler was available 2 years later in 1960. Algol 58 wasn't available until 1960 either. The ALGO (Algol 58) manual for the Bendix: http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/algo6008.pdf http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/algo6008.pdf The first compiler for PL/1 was delivered much later, in 1966. You could have suggested LISP 1.0 but that appeared in 1960 too (as an interpreter, the first compiler was written in 1962). LISP, COBOL, ALGOL: 1960 was a remarkable year in the history of programming languages.
empath75 9y ago
From my experience the government is excited about kubernetes and openshift and are slowly starting to use it for prod (security approval is tricky)

justinator 9y ago

Oh yes, 1000x maintainable with 1000x more lines in the codebase. Speak softly into my ear, these little lies you like to tell me.

samlents 9y ago
Having not worked on large scale systems like what I imagine they must be working with, is this really true? I would have thought that a modern framework would make things easier. I've certainly had life made easier by modern web frameworks like React and Angular, although the support timeline is more on the order of 2-3 years, rather than 20-30.
- dx034 9y ago
  Not sure, what if you have an enterprise system that uses a few hundred docker containers and at some point in 10-20 years there's a major vulnerability that can only be fixed by breaking compatibility for one function? Securing that system could be significantly harder than fixing a monolithic system.
chiph 9y ago
Make sure you're including all the lines, including those in libraries/frameworks you reference. Because they all count towards your MTBF.

DonaldFisk 9y ago

50 years ago the WWW didn't exist and there was no such thing as a servlet. The system ran on a mainframe not 50 but 60 years ago. The only high level language at the time was FORTRAN, but this system was apparently written in assembly language. Does anyone know the type of computer it ran on? The article it linked to says IBM mainframe but which model?

cat199 9y ago
> The only high level language at the time was FORTRAN, but this system was apparently written in assembly language. No direct insight to the actual system used, but FWIW IBM mainframe assembly IMHO seems 'surprisingly' user friendly due to the large amount of standard macros/routines provided, clear/direct integration with JCL, and the minimalist ethos of the OS. Take a look at some youtube videos for some examples, it actually looks like a fairly interesting/productive, if arcane, environment. Writing clean/well architected applications in it doesn't actually look like it would necessarily be a ridiculous notion. Of course, how well any given production system was constructed and what cruft has accumulated in it over 50y is probably another story..
saratogacx 9y ago
They use IBM/360[1] mainframes. Bloomberg had a good story [2] some time ago that was re-run last April 17th on some of the history. [1] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tech-timebomb-the-irs-is-still-living-in-the-1960s https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tech-timebomb-the-irs-is-... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-17/the-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-17/the-irs-c...
beezle 9y ago
COBOL, ALGOL, PL/1
- DonaldFisk 9y ago
  Not in 1958. The first COBOL compiler was available 2 years later in 1960. Algol 58 wasn't available until 1960 either. The ALGO (Algol 58) manual for the Bendix: http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/algo6008.pdf http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/algo6008.pdf The first compiler for PL/1 was delivered much later, in 1966. You could have suggested LISP 1.0 but that appeared in 1960 too (as an interpreter, the first compiler was written in 1962). LISP, COBOL, ALGOL: 1960 was a remarkable year in the history of programming languages.

empath75 9y ago

From my experience the government is excited about kubernetes and openshift and are slowly starting to use it for prod (security approval is tricky)