13 ms·

Problem is medical claims are highly regulated in the West. So there is a likely legal liability for youtube in the US and in the UK. In fact, they might have a

Problem is medical claims are highly regulated in the West. So there is a likely legal liability for youtube in the US and in the UK. In fact, they might have already had pressure from regulators.

jerf 8y ago
That would make sense. It would help if YouTube would say so. I'm not sure Google's usual total opacity is going to play to their favor here. As I said in another comment, I personally see no reason to trust their judgment in these matters, but if they said "Hey, we're getting regulatory pressure from X about Y and we need to remove your stuff" that would be a step in the direction of restoring my trust. (I've got other reasons I'm very unlikely to ever trust them very much overall, but I am capable of nuance, so I have no problem saying I would at least trust them more.)
vertexFarm 8y ago
“Nothing illegal, no medical advice offered, I've always been incredibly careful about this.” The article then goes on to name several videos with titles like "increase energy," "improve concentration and memory," "improve sleep," etc. Are there any lawyers around who know of a legal definition for "medical advice" or "medical claims?" Because these videos sound a lot like medical advice despite his insistence that they aren't. Youtube censorship sucks sometimes, but this guy experimenting on himself is not nearly rigorous enough to figure out what's really happening when he is taking these supplements. When a person sets out to improve themselves with drugs, test the process on themselves, and interpret and analyze those results themselves, it's a viper's pit of biases. Obviously the experimenter has a huge personal stake in the experiment (arguably the largest; his person is the experiment!) and that generally is great for motivation but bad for science. I like playing with nootropics but I'm also relatively healthy and I can't imagine how damaging it might be for a seriously ill person who is taking advice from youtube in a desperate and futile attempt to improve their condition and survive. The ethics are pretty complex, above my pay grade for sure.
- stevecronin 8y ago
  While I disagree that the titles are medical advice, I do see your point. It's funny because actually my YouTube mentor suggested use titles like that so people who didn't know what the products were could get an idea for what they were used for. I still made disclaimers in my videos.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  > a legal definition for "medical advice" If you're talking about the FDA, the basic rule is that you can't claim a product treats or cures any diagnosable condition it hasn't been certified for. Claims like "improve concentration" and "improve sleep" are generally permissible, where specific statements like "helps with ADD" and "cures insomnia" are not. Based on those video titles, I don't see anything which constitutes medical advice in the narrow sense. Someone could well have decided the overall effect was tacit medical advice, but these titles in isolation aren't clear violations.
- driverdan 8y ago
  Those are called non-functional claims and are allowed in the US. Any time you see something non-specific like "boosts the immune system" or "increases energy" it means the product is likely worthless because those claims don't actually mean anything.
  - p1necone 8y ago
    How do those claims not mean anything? They sound pretty clear to me.
    - X-Istence 8y ago
      Because the FDA has very specific rules as to what constitutes medical advice and what doesn't. The claim of "helps you sleep" is not medical advice and not regulated. It's the reason so many "nutrition" companies can get away with claiming all kinds of things such as "burn fat faster". That statement means something to you and I, but it's not a medical statement.
swirepe 8y ago
Did you know that Pepsi is made from dead babies? I didn't, before YouTube [1]. It turns out you can say almost anything you want on video without it being a legal issue. I don't think regulators care about this small-time stuff. [1]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d72KsFEenz8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d72KsFEenz8
- warent 8y ago
  Absolutely bogus. I just spent 30 minutes verifying this claim. They used HEK 293 cells combined with taste receptors as a tool in the development of a totally unrelated molecule by Senomyx called Sweetmyx. Sweetmyx has zero embryo cells in it. The embryo cells were used to test how the human taste receptors would respond to Sweetmyx. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/senomyxed-messages/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/senomyxed-messages/
  - swirepe 8y ago
    Yes, it is bogus. That's the point, actually. You can just say whatever bogus stuff you want on YouTube.
- haZard_OS 8y ago
  groan I actually had to address that claim during a lecture once. Ridiculous. For the record, I think anyone peddling pseudoscience regarding medical conditions should be shutdown hard and fast. People who suffer from chronic pain or incurable illness can become desperate and turn to charlatans whose snake-oil can produce terrible effects. It isn't harmless to prey on such insecurities. http://whatstheharm.net/ http://whatstheharm.net/
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - zxcmx 8y ago
    I think this is tricky because as soon as you shut down the obvious stuff (ok, dead babies...) you will quickly arrive at barely or non provable stuff, acai berry level things, and medical claims (fructose intolerance! real thing btw!) which you are going to need a phd to sort out. I am not sure how youtube or any general content site could realistically be expected to have a policy on all these things. You can't eradicate the nonsense you can just change its nature. In some ways I think having complete nonsense out there is healthy in terms of promoting skepticism amongst normal people.
dghughes 8y ago
Meanwhile MontrealHealthyGirls' YouTube channel is far worse. Her cancer and diabetes "cures" she's downright dangerous, and nuts.
- corobo 8y ago
  Have you reported the channel?
  - dghughes 8y ago
    Yes, often. And the same for Twitter. I don't understand how she keeps escaping being shutdown or even arrested. The Canadian government just banned a Naturopath product with actual rabies saliva in it which was used to treat children. At least there's progress.
serf 8y ago
>Problem is medical claims are highly regulated in the West. so highly regulated that I can buy a one-time dose vial of mystery liquid at my local liquor store that promises harder erections and improved cognition, without the active ingredients printed anywhere. If this was triggered by pressure from any group like the FDA, i'd sure be curious why they decided to start regulating medical woo-woo at the YouTube level, and not at the "homeopath that can cure any cancer" level, which is totally prevalent in the U.S. When I had a commute I used to count the car windshield banner stickers that advertised the sale of miracle juices, berrys, extracts, whatever. Those 'Avon-esque' pyramid schemes are dangerous from both sides -- both for suckers that get pulled in as sellers , and for the folks consuming the stuff hoping to cure colon cancer, but that stuff is still as prevalent as ever.. When, exactly, does western medical regulation kick in? It seems to be when you're making lots of money on-shore.
stevecronin 8y ago
I always made it very clear not to make medical claims.
- dbasedweeb 8y ago
  Relax and Improve Your Sleep with Natural Calm Magnesium If that’s your version of very clear, maybe you shouldn’t be giving people advice.
  - stevecronin 8y ago
    So does adding a question mark at the end of the title fit your position? It's a title and you did not watch the video, it's the same when you buy that product at whole foods and the label says something, then you turn it over to see it's not medical advice.
    - jmcqk6 8y ago
      Here is how you can state it without ambiguity: Learn how magnesium may relax and improve your sleep
  - girvo 8y ago
    Y’know, he’s right: that’s technically not a medical claim, it’s a “non-functional” claim. Of course, I also get what you mean; to you and I, that looks exactly like a medical claim! The regulations for all this are slightly mental, which is why things like homeopathy and those bullshit “skinny tea” pyramid schemes survive

Problem is medical claims are highly regulated in the West. So there is a likely legal liability for youtube in the US and in the UK. In fact, they might have already had pressure from regulators.

jerf 8y ago

That would make sense. It would help if YouTube would say so. I'm not sure Google's usual total opacity is going to play to their favor here. As I said in another comment, I personally see no reason to trust their judgment in these matters, but if they said "Hey, we're getting regulatory pressure from X about Y and we need to remove your stuff" that would be a step in the direction of restoring my trust. (I've got other reasons I'm very unlikely to ever trust them very much overall, but I am capable of nuance, so I have no problem saying I would at least trust them more.)

vertexFarm 8y ago

“Nothing illegal, no medical advice offered, I've always been incredibly careful about this.” The article then goes on to name several videos with titles like "increase energy," "improve concentration and memory," "improve sleep," etc. Are there any lawyers around who know of a legal definition for "medical advice" or "medical claims?" Because these videos sound a lot like medical advice despite his insistence that they aren't. Youtube censorship sucks sometimes, but this guy experimenting on himself is not nearly rigorous enough to figure out what's really happening when he is taking these supplements. When a person sets out to improve themselves with drugs, test the process on themselves, and interpret and analyze those results themselves, it's a viper's pit of biases. Obviously the experimenter has a huge personal stake in the experiment (arguably the largest; his person is the experiment!) and that generally is great for motivation but bad for science. I like playing with nootropics but I'm also relatively healthy and I can't imagine how damaging it might be for a seriously ill person who is taking advice from youtube in a desperate and futile attempt to improve their condition and survive. The ethics are pretty complex, above my pay grade for sure.

stevecronin 8y ago
While I disagree that the titles are medical advice, I do see your point. It's funny because actually my YouTube mentor suggested use titles like that so people who didn't know what the products were could get an idea for what they were used for. I still made disclaimers in my videos.
Bartweiss 8y ago
> a legal definition for "medical advice" If you're talking about the FDA, the basic rule is that you can't claim a product treats or cures any diagnosable condition it hasn't been certified for. Claims like "improve concentration" and "improve sleep" are generally permissible, where specific statements like "helps with ADD" and "cures insomnia" are not. Based on those video titles, I don't see anything which constitutes medical advice in the narrow sense. Someone could well have decided the overall effect was tacit medical advice, but these titles in isolation aren't clear violations.
driverdan 8y ago
Those are called non-functional claims and are allowed in the US. Any time you see something non-specific like "boosts the immune system" or "increases energy" it means the product is likely worthless because those claims don't actually mean anything.
- p1necone 8y ago
  How do those claims not mean anything? They sound pretty clear to me.
  - X-Istence 8y ago
    Because the FDA has very specific rules as to what constitutes medical advice and what doesn't. The claim of "helps you sleep" is not medical advice and not regulated. It's the reason so many "nutrition" companies can get away with claiming all kinds of things such as "burn fat faster". That statement means something to you and I, but it's not a medical statement.

swirepe 8y ago

Did you know that Pepsi is made from dead babies? I didn't, before YouTube [1]. It turns out you can say almost anything you want on video without it being a legal issue. I don't think regulators care about this small-time stuff. [1]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d72KsFEenz8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d72KsFEenz8

warent 8y ago
Absolutely bogus. I just spent 30 minutes verifying this claim. They used HEK 293 cells combined with taste receptors as a tool in the development of a totally unrelated molecule by Senomyx called Sweetmyx. Sweetmyx has zero embryo cells in it. The embryo cells were used to test how the human taste receptors would respond to Sweetmyx. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/senomyxed-messages/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/senomyxed-messages/
- swirepe 8y ago
  Yes, it is bogus. That's the point, actually. You can just say whatever bogus stuff you want on YouTube.
haZard_OS 8y ago
groan I actually had to address that claim during a lecture once. Ridiculous. For the record, I think anyone peddling pseudoscience regarding medical conditions should be shutdown hard and fast. People who suffer from chronic pain or incurable illness can become desperate and turn to charlatans whose snake-oil can produce terrible effects. It isn't harmless to prey on such insecurities. http://whatstheharm.net/ http://whatstheharm.net/
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zxcmx 8y ago
  I think this is tricky because as soon as you shut down the obvious stuff (ok, dead babies...) you will quickly arrive at barely or non provable stuff, acai berry level things, and medical claims (fructose intolerance! real thing btw!) which you are going to need a phd to sort out. I am not sure how youtube or any general content site could realistically be expected to have a policy on all these things. You can't eradicate the nonsense you can just change its nature. In some ways I think having complete nonsense out there is healthy in terms of promoting skepticism amongst normal people.

dghughes 8y ago

Meanwhile MontrealHealthyGirls' YouTube channel is far worse. Her cancer and diabetes "cures" she's downright dangerous, and nuts.

corobo 8y ago
Have you reported the channel?
- dghughes 8y ago
  Yes, often. And the same for Twitter. I don't understand how she keeps escaping being shutdown or even arrested. The Canadian government just banned a Naturopath product with actual rabies saliva in it which was used to treat children. At least there's progress.

serf 8y ago

>Problem is medical claims are highly regulated in the West. so highly regulated that I can buy a one-time dose vial of mystery liquid at my local liquor store that promises harder erections and improved cognition, without the active ingredients printed anywhere. If this was triggered by pressure from any group like the FDA, i'd sure be curious why they decided to start regulating medical woo-woo at the YouTube level, and not at the "homeopath that can cure any cancer" level, which is totally prevalent in the U.S. When I had a commute I used to count the car windshield banner stickers that advertised the sale of miracle juices, berrys, extracts, whatever. Those 'Avon-esque' pyramid schemes are dangerous from both sides -- both for suckers that get pulled in as sellers , and for the folks consuming the stuff hoping to cure colon cancer, but that stuff is still as prevalent as ever.. When, exactly, does western medical regulation kick in? It seems to be when you're making lots of money on-shore.

stevecronin 8y ago

I always made it very clear not to make medical claims.

dbasedweeb 8y ago
Relax and Improve Your Sleep with Natural Calm Magnesium If that’s your version of very clear, maybe you shouldn’t be giving people advice.
- stevecronin 8y ago
  So does adding a question mark at the end of the title fit your position? It's a title and you did not watch the video, it's the same when you buy that product at whole foods and the label says something, then you turn it over to see it's not medical advice.
  - jmcqk6 8y ago
    Here is how you can state it without ambiguity: Learn how magnesium may relax and improve your sleep
- girvo 8y ago
  Y’know, he’s right: that’s technically not a medical claim, it’s a “non-functional” claim. Of course, I also get what you mean; to you and I, that looks exactly like a medical claim! The regulations for all this are slightly mental, which is why things like homeopathy and those bullshit “skinny tea” pyramid schemes survive