5 ms·

>Nowadays, "working-class, blue-collar" stuff does not make money, and if "working-class, blue-collar" people identify with the economic system which designates

>Nowadays, "working-class, blue-collar" stuff does not make money, and if "working-class, blue-collar" people identify with the economic system which designates their labor as a cost to be repressed rather than a service to be rewarded, I'm not sure how much I can do about that. Maybe by pointing to blue collar work that still pays well. A buddy of mine is an auto mechanic and is the sole income earner for his family. They do just fine in St Louis (another city like Detroit and Pitt). Another friend of mine is a pipe fitter for gas pipelines who works 3-6 months a year and earns ~150-200K depending on contracts. Spends the rest of the year surfing and diving. Trades do, in fact, make money. Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber.

HankB99 8y ago
Here's what the BLS has to say about that. https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm I think about this when people post about how you don;t really need a college degree, you just need a trade. I have no doubt that some tradesmen do very well but I doubt they represent the entire class of workers. I do wonder what the numbers would look like if trained tradesmen (and women) were compared based on time spent learning (e.g. years of apprenticeship vs. years of college.)
biocomputation 8y ago
I totally agree. My parents own a 'cabin' in a development in the mountains, and the biggest cabin in the development -by far- is owned by a a plumber. He has done very well, and I doubt he writes much, if any, code.
- girvo 8y ago
  You’d be surprised! My dad is a builder, and programs his own utility software (in Access and other systems) to make his life easier (like work diaries, log books and so on)
  - biocomputation 8y ago
    Well put! I shouldn't assume.
sangnoir 8y ago
> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. How many tradesmen are self-employed? I think business-owning plumbers would be equivalent to consultants in the software world, and their billed income (per hour) is way above average for the field.
mbesto 8y ago
> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. Anecdotal, but the average quote I got for electricians in the bay area was $200/hour. This is also consistent for electricians in the wealthy suburbs of Chicago (just had a friend recently get work done at that price). I recently paid $2k to get a transmission done, of which $1700 was labor alone (took 3 days). Point is - these trades are no joke when it comes to earning income, especially if you're talented. I'm a serious proponent of promoting vocational jobs. Even in an "AI world" you're still going to need mechanics. Basically anything with moving parts needs labor.
- TomMckenny 8y ago
  Where did that $2k come from? While it's nice there is some way to redistribute wealth in this way, unfortunately service sector jobs don't create wealth: you can not have a city solely of repairmen and realtors. Less skilled factory work would generate wealth, but unfortunately those are the exact jobs that left.
  - alexbeloi 8y ago
    >service sector jobs don't create wealth: you can not have a city solely of repairmen and realtors. Repairmen very directly create wealth by adding value to the thing they repair, equivalent to a craft trade or construction. Realtors create wealth indirectly by increasing/facilitating trade, trade creates wealth.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    What is "wealth"? If car built in a factory is useful for 10 years without repairs, but useful for 30 years with repairs, the mechanics add 20 years of useful life to the car. Does that not increase wealth?
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      I'd argue it increases utility, not wealth. It'd increase wealth if that vehicle was used in a business to generate income.
pkaye 8y ago
Yup, I had a leaking roof during the last rainstorm and the emergency repair cost me $800 for 1 hour of work. Still happy with it because the potential damage would have been much worse. A while back I needed some sprinkler work done.. normally I would have attempted it myself but due to health issues I can't do it anymore... and the lowest cost gardener was $200 for 30 minutes worth of work. There is still money in the blue collar trades for someone willing to run a business.
- vadym909 8y ago
  Just for perspective, these jobs are a bit different than regular contracting or hourly jobs. Although the hourly rate seems high, often we exclude the travel time. Also the uneven demand. For example- On a rainy day, there might be 10 calls but they can only take a few and on sunny days they'd be lucky to get a call.
taeric 8y ago
Sadly, this is the sort of advice that would work for anybody, but won't work for everybody. :( Specifically, if more folks were trying to follow this advice, it would begin to fail in predictable ways.
ajross 8y ago
> A buddy of mine [...] is an auto mechanic [...another...] is a pipe fitter for gas pipelines [...] next time you call a plumber. Noted without comment that these are all predominantly white, male occupations. Would you say the same thing about dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning or school teaching? Does that alter your thinking about whether or not "trades" make money? Does it make you want to argue about what constitutes a "trade"? I'm not so much calling your wrong, just pointing out that the perspective here is skewed. Arguing that "blue collar work is just fine" by pointing out to one particular, historically dominant in-group maybe doesn't make the argument you think it does. In the modern economy, we need to staff a lot more restaurants and schools than we do pipe fitting crews. How does your argument change when you look at those occupations? Edit to clarify: the point here is that you can't fix things by having more people go into car repair and pipe fitting and plumbing because those jobs are already taken. We have plenty of plumbers in our society. Why? Because as the grandparent mentioned plumbing is a desirable job and it pays well. And, being a desirable job, it's, yeah, been monopolized by a particular subgroup within the larger demographics. So to a white dude, the "just be a plumber" advice makes more sense than is really appropriate.
- breischl 8y ago
  Most of the examples you provided (specifically dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning) are not traditionally considered "blue collar" or "the trades." Rather they are considered unskilled labor. So your comment doesn't really respond to the GP's comments about the trades. I suspect that relatively few would argue that unskilled labor is a great way to support a family. I also suspect that conflating unskilled labor with the trades and then using that to claim that the GP's comment was essentially racist is the likely source of the downvotes you've gotten. Note I excluded school teaching from my earlier comments. TBH I'm not sure what category that falls under, but I'm relatively certain it's not unskilled labor.
  - ajross 8y ago
    > I suspect that relatively few would argue that unskilled labor is a great way to support a family. So... how do workers in these jobs-that-apparently-don't-qualify-as-trades support their families? We have the economy we have. Someone has to do these jobs. You can't wave a magic wand and insist that everything would be fine as long as everyone is a plumber. Someone has to pick the fruit and teach the kids. People who do that can't support families. That's a problem, right? The solution isn't plumbing, is all I'm saying.
throwawayjava 8y ago
When the factory closes, whose car do you repair? When the factory closes, whose plumbing do you fix? When the factory closes, whose house to you build? As all of these cities aptly demonstrate, plumbing and auto mechanic jobs aren't a panacea for disappearing factory jobs.
hathawsh 8y ago
This is why I'm a big advocate (but not affiliate) of the "mikeroweWORKS" foundation. Mike Rowe, from the TV show "Dirty Jobs", is using his foundation to revive interest in trade schools and jobs. There are a lot of people who could be great machinists, electricians, plumbers, etc., but due to social pressures, they start college and soon drop out, then work for peanuts (if they can find any job at all). We need to eliminate the stigma against trade schools and encourage people to work with their hands if that's their passion. http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/ http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/
- sanderjd 8y ago
  I'm a big fan of his foundation too, but I often find myself wondering whether the stigma is the biggest problem. I looked into becoming an electrician awhile back, and the path to licensure seemed long and expensive. Contra that path, I'm sure we all know very successful self-educated programmers. Maybe the licensure and training expense is totally necessary, or maybe it could be improved through regulation reforms or apprenticeship instead of for-pay training. I really don't know enough about these industries to say, but it seems possible. It also seems like that would be likely to result in those jobs no longer paying such top dollar. Put a different way: it seems like if Mike Rowe were extremely successful in his initiatives on this front, the result may be that the jobs he is advocating are no longer as attractive as they currently are. Having said all that, I'll be very angry with myself if my future children graduate high school thinking that college is the only next step that would make their loved ones proud, like it was for me and my friends.

HankB99 8y ago

Here's what the BLS has to say about that. https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm I think about this when people post about how you don;t really need a college degree, you just need a trade. I have no doubt that some tradesmen do very well but I doubt they represent the entire class of workers. I do wonder what the numbers would look like if trained tradesmen (and women) were compared based on time spent learning (e.g. years of apprenticeship vs. years of college.)

biocomputation 8y ago

I totally agree. My parents own a 'cabin' in a development in the mountains, and the biggest cabin in the development -by far- is owned by a a plumber. He has done very well, and I doubt he writes much, if any, code.

girvo 8y ago
You’d be surprised! My dad is a builder, and programs his own utility software (in Access and other systems) to make his life easier (like work diaries, log books and so on)
- biocomputation 8y ago
  Well put! I shouldn't assume.

sangnoir 8y ago

> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. How many tradesmen are self-employed? I think business-owning plumbers would be equivalent to consultants in the software world, and their billed income (per hour) is way above average for the field.

mbesto 8y ago

> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. Anecdotal, but the average quote I got for electricians in the bay area was $200/hour. This is also consistent for electricians in the wealthy suburbs of Chicago (just had a friend recently get work done at that price). I recently paid $2k to get a transmission done, of which $1700 was labor alone (took 3 days). Point is - these trades are no joke when it comes to earning income, especially if you're talented. I'm a serious proponent of promoting vocational jobs. Even in an "AI world" you're still going to need mechanics. Basically anything with moving parts needs labor.

TomMckenny 8y ago
Where did that $2k come from? While it's nice there is some way to redistribute wealth in this way, unfortunately service sector jobs don't create wealth: you can not have a city solely of repairmen and realtors. Less skilled factory work would generate wealth, but unfortunately those are the exact jobs that left.
- alexbeloi 8y ago
  >service sector jobs don't create wealth: you can not have a city solely of repairmen and realtors. Repairmen very directly create wealth by adding value to the thing they repair, equivalent to a craft trade or construction. Realtors create wealth indirectly by increasing/facilitating trade, trade creates wealth.
- leereeves 8y ago
  What is "wealth"? If car built in a factory is useful for 10 years without repairs, but useful for 30 years with repairs, the mechanics add 20 years of useful life to the car. Does that not increase wealth?
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    I'd argue it increases utility, not wealth. It'd increase wealth if that vehicle was used in a business to generate income.

pkaye 8y ago

Yup, I had a leaking roof during the last rainstorm and the emergency repair cost me $800 for 1 hour of work. Still happy with it because the potential damage would have been much worse. A while back I needed some sprinkler work done.. normally I would have attempted it myself but due to health issues I can't do it anymore... and the lowest cost gardener was $200 for 30 minutes worth of work. There is still money in the blue collar trades for someone willing to run a business.

vadym909 8y ago
Just for perspective, these jobs are a bit different than regular contracting or hourly jobs. Although the hourly rate seems high, often we exclude the travel time. Also the uneven demand. For example- On a rainy day, there might be 10 calls but they can only take a few and on sunny days they'd be lucky to get a call.

taeric 8y ago

Sadly, this is the sort of advice that would work for anybody, but won't work for everybody. :( Specifically, if more folks were trying to follow this advice, it would begin to fail in predictable ways.

ajross 8y ago

> A buddy of mine [...] is an auto mechanic [...another...] is a pipe fitter for gas pipelines [...] next time you call a plumber. Noted without comment that these are all predominantly white, male occupations. Would you say the same thing about dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning or school teaching? Does that alter your thinking about whether or not "trades" make money? Does it make you want to argue about what constitutes a "trade"? I'm not so much calling your wrong, just pointing out that the perspective here is skewed. Arguing that "blue collar work is just fine" by pointing out to one particular, historically dominant in-group maybe doesn't make the argument you think it does. In the modern economy, we need to staff a lot more restaurants and schools than we do pipe fitting crews. How does your argument change when you look at those occupations? Edit to clarify: the point here is that you can't fix things by having more people go into car repair and pipe fitting and plumbing because those jobs are already taken. We have plenty of plumbers in our society. Why? Because as the grandparent mentioned plumbing is a desirable job and it pays well. And, being a desirable job, it's, yeah, been monopolized by a particular subgroup within the larger demographics. So to a white dude, the "just be a plumber" advice makes more sense than is really appropriate.

breischl 8y ago
Most of the examples you provided (specifically dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning) are not traditionally considered "blue collar" or "the trades." Rather they are considered unskilled labor. So your comment doesn't really respond to the GP's comments about the trades. I suspect that relatively few would argue that unskilled labor is a great way to support a family. I also suspect that conflating unskilled labor with the trades and then using that to claim that the GP's comment was essentially racist is the likely source of the downvotes you've gotten. Note I excluded school teaching from my earlier comments. TBH I'm not sure what category that falls under, but I'm relatively certain it's not unskilled labor.
- ajross 8y ago
  > I suspect that relatively few would argue that unskilled labor is a great way to support a family. So... how do workers in these jobs-that-apparently-don't-qualify-as-trades support their families? We have the economy we have. Someone has to do these jobs. You can't wave a magic wand and insist that everything would be fine as long as everyone is a plumber. Someone has to pick the fruit and teach the kids. People who do that can't support families. That's a problem, right? The solution isn't plumbing, is all I'm saying.

throwawayjava 8y ago

When the factory closes, whose car do you repair? When the factory closes, whose plumbing do you fix? When the factory closes, whose house to you build? As all of these cities aptly demonstrate, plumbing and auto mechanic jobs aren't a panacea for disappearing factory jobs.

hathawsh 8y ago

This is why I'm a big advocate (but not affiliate) of the "mikeroweWORKS" foundation. Mike Rowe, from the TV show "Dirty Jobs", is using his foundation to revive interest in trade schools and jobs. There are a lot of people who could be great machinists, electricians, plumbers, etc., but due to social pressures, they start college and soon drop out, then work for peanuts (if they can find any job at all). We need to eliminate the stigma against trade schools and encourage people to work with their hands if that's their passion. http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/ http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/

sanderjd 8y ago
I'm a big fan of his foundation too, but I often find myself wondering whether the stigma is the biggest problem. I looked into becoming an electrician awhile back, and the path to licensure seemed long and expensive. Contra that path, I'm sure we all know very successful self-educated programmers. Maybe the licensure and training expense is totally necessary, or maybe it could be improved through regulation reforms or apprenticeship instead of for-pay training. I really don't know enough about these industries to say, but it seems possible. It also seems like that would be likely to result in those jobs no longer paying such top dollar. Put a different way: it seems like if Mike Rowe were extremely successful in his initiatives on this front, the result may be that the jobs he is advocating are no longer as attractive as they currently are. Having said all that, I'll be very angry with myself if my future children graduate high school thinking that college is the only next step that would make their loved ones proud, like it was for me and my friends.