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> Only in the classical 'billiard balls' universe would there not be free will, in every other situation there has to be some element that allows us to make cho

> Only in the classical 'billiard balls' universe would there not be free will, in every other situation there has to be some element that allows us to make choices for good or bad. I think you're saying that a 'billiard balls' universe is deterministic, even if it's far beyond our ability to either detect a given state or predict outcomes, and that otherwise in the 'quantum' view, there is true chance, or randomness, involved. I'm assuming that's what you're going from. Given that, why do you believe that free will must come from a universe that has real chance in it? (If that's an accurate statement of your belief.) How does free will necessarily flow from fundamental randomness?

jacquesm 9y ago
Because that element of randomness introduces the room that allows decisions to go one way or the other not dependent on the initial conditions. The question then shifts to 'is the state of the universe at any point in time knowable', and if it isn't then you probably will have vector through which thinking creatures could have free will. And even if the whole string of chance encounters up to there did not exhibit free will the ability to choose an outcome would quickly become a selection criterion in any genetic mix that ends up laying out a nervous system. After all, the ability to react intelligently to an environment is a huge benefit. In a 'billiard balls' (as you correctly infer, deterministic) universe it doesn't matter whether minds exist or not, the outcome will be identical. Having reasoning ability in a universe like that would be akin to a cruel version of being along for the ride without any ability to influence your environment. And I don't think we need to look very far to determine that our minds have very successfully influenced our environment so there is some evidence that it makes a difference. Ah! says the proponent of the deterministic universe: but if it were deterministic it would be just the same! Which to me is just as much a cop-out as saying 'God did it'. Randomness is a thing, entropy is a thing and quantum mechanics operates at a level that our brains are ill equipped to deal with. It appears to me that free will is real, and our whole society is built on that premise.
- csallen 9y ago
  Free will is about ultimately having control. If your decisions are randomly determined by quantum mechanics, you aren't any freer than if your decisions are the result of a deterministic process.
  - minor3rd 9y ago
    Yep, I don't see free will in a completely random universe OR a completely deterministic universe. In either case, something you have no control over is governing your behavior.
    - BuckRogers 9y ago
      Free will doesn't exist so you're correct. The subconscious mind controls everything and your idea of self and conscious choice is a ruse. It's been proven again and again in peer reviewed, reproducible studies over the last 30 years.

jacquesm 9y ago

Because that element of randomness introduces the room that allows decisions to go one way or the other not dependent on the initial conditions. The question then shifts to 'is the state of the universe at any point in time knowable', and if it isn't then you probably will have vector through which thinking creatures could have free will. And even if the whole string of chance encounters up to there did not exhibit free will the ability to choose an outcome would quickly become a selection criterion in any genetic mix that ends up laying out a nervous system. After all, the ability to react intelligently to an environment is a huge benefit. In a 'billiard balls' (as you correctly infer, deterministic) universe it doesn't matter whether minds exist or not, the outcome will be identical. Having reasoning ability in a universe like that would be akin to a cruel version of being along for the ride without any ability to influence your environment. And I don't think we need to look very far to determine that our minds have very successfully influenced our environment so there is some evidence that it makes a difference. Ah! says the proponent of the deterministic universe: but if it were deterministic it would be just the same! Which to me is just as much a cop-out as saying 'God did it'. Randomness is a thing, entropy is a thing and quantum mechanics operates at a level that our brains are ill equipped to deal with. It appears to me that free will is real, and our whole society is built on that premise.

csallen 9y ago
Free will is about ultimately having control. If your decisions are randomly determined by quantum mechanics, you aren't any freer than if your decisions are the result of a deterministic process.
- minor3rd 9y ago
  Yep, I don't see free will in a completely random universe OR a completely deterministic universe. In either case, something you have no control over is governing your behavior.
  - BuckRogers 9y ago
    Free will doesn't exist so you're correct. The subconscious mind controls everything and your idea of self and conscious choice is a ruse. It's been proven again and again in peer reviewed, reproducible studies over the last 30 years.