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These are two separate discussions, really: - Is the universe fully deterministic? We don't know the answer to that, and it's possible we might never know - A

These are two separate discussions, really: - Is the universe fully deterministic? We don't know the answer to that, and it's possible we might never know - Are the life decisions that I make correlated with my success? That one is easier to work out: Even if the "decisions" turn out to be "pseudo-random" due to the properties of the underlying universe, they could still be correlated with success, therefore it's useful to devote resources into deliberately moving closer to that "success" (even if there are external/random factors) at play

kazinator 8y ago
I'd feel satisfied if it turned out that I'm a deterministic machine planted in a nondeterministic universe.
- Diederich 8y ago
  Why? What's the difference?
harshreality 8y ago
> - Are the life decisions that I make correlated with my success? That one is easier to work out: Even if the "decisions" turn out to be "pseudo-random" due to the properties of the underlying universe, they could still be correlated with success, therefore it's useful to devote resources into deliberately moving closer to that "success" (even if there are external/random factors) at play But "devoting resources to deliberately moving closer to that 'success'" is just as much not-determined-by-you as everything else, whether it's fully deterministic in a classical physics sense, or partly deterministic, and part randomly quantum-influenced. The notion that you can influence yourself is true... your thoughts a second ago influence your thoughts now. So, through introspection, you can see that you're influencing yourself. But it's a mirage, because you're not at the root of the chain of causation going back to the first thought you had, so you don't control the thought you had a second ago, and you don't control any external factors (senses) that influenced you between your last thought and your current thought, so you don't control your thought now. The reason you devote resources to moving closer to success isn't that you're "deciding" (from no prior state) to do that. Rather, your psychology is already such that you want to actively improve yourself, you don't have other psychological issues that would sabotage that desire, and you see a path to improve yourself. What better to do, then, than to move yourself along that path toward future success?
- TheCoreh 8y ago
  Yeah, that's a good point. I guess the ideal way to put it is that I didn't mean "decision" necessarily in a "free-will, non-deterministic" way but rather in a more computational sense (like branches of an "if"). If ultimately free will turns out to not exist, that will affect us very little in how we live: perhaps morally we should be more forgiving towards other people's shortcomings
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    > perhaps morally we should be more forgiving towards other people's shortcomings That's good practice anyway.
  - minor3rd 8y ago
    Yep I don't believe in free will and agree whole-heartedly with everything you said. I still believe people make decisions and that those decisions have consequences, I just think the decisions can likely be traced back to the state of the universe and physical processes rather than poofing out of nowhere. Of course, even if quantum mechanics means that there are some random processes at play, that doesn't change much since it is still quantum mechanics at the root of those "poofs".

kazinator 8y ago

I'd feel satisfied if it turned out that I'm a deterministic machine planted in a nondeterministic universe.

Diederich 8y ago
Why? What's the difference?

harshreality 8y ago

> - Are the life decisions that I make correlated with my success? That one is easier to work out: Even if the "decisions" turn out to be "pseudo-random" due to the properties of the underlying universe, they could still be correlated with success, therefore it's useful to devote resources into deliberately moving closer to that "success" (even if there are external/random factors) at play But "devoting resources to deliberately moving closer to that 'success'" is just as much not-determined-by-you as everything else, whether it's fully deterministic in a classical physics sense, or partly deterministic, and part randomly quantum-influenced. The notion that you can influence yourself is true... your thoughts a second ago influence your thoughts now. So, through introspection, you can see that you're influencing yourself. But it's a mirage, because you're not at the root of the chain of causation going back to the first thought you had, so you don't control the thought you had a second ago, and you don't control any external factors (senses) that influenced you between your last thought and your current thought, so you don't control your thought now. The reason you devote resources to moving closer to success isn't that you're "deciding" (from no prior state) to do that. Rather, your psychology is already such that you want to actively improve yourself, you don't have other psychological issues that would sabotage that desire, and you see a path to improve yourself. What better to do, then, than to move yourself along that path toward future success?

TheCoreh 8y ago
Yeah, that's a good point. I guess the ideal way to put it is that I didn't mean "decision" necessarily in a "free-will, non-deterministic" way but rather in a more computational sense (like branches of an "if"). If ultimately free will turns out to not exist, that will affect us very little in how we live: perhaps morally we should be more forgiving towards other people's shortcomings
- jacquesm 8y ago
  > perhaps morally we should be more forgiving towards other people's shortcomings That's good practice anyway.
- minor3rd 8y ago
  Yep I don't believe in free will and agree whole-heartedly with everything you said. I still believe people make decisions and that those decisions have consequences, I just think the decisions can likely be traced back to the state of the universe and physical processes rather than poofing out of nowhere. Of course, even if quantum mechanics means that there are some random processes at play, that doesn't change much since it is still quantum mechanics at the root of those "poofs".